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MidniteArrow
05-06-2002, 12:25 AM
Question: Has anyone seen a 1080i or 720p signal come out of their Xbox?

I've got an HDTV and have the only title yet released that supports it: Burnout. I can't get the thing to work. I called 1-800-MY-XBOX and they tell me that they help people set up the HDTV capabilities all the time and that it works great in the field. How have they verified this exactly? Am I missing something?

LynxFX
05-06-2002, 12:52 AM
Nope, still haven't heard of or seen anyone get it to work.

As far as MS Help saying that they get it to work in the field all the time...well BS to that. He is probably just talking about setting up people with the HD A/V pack and getting a 480p max signal out. Besides, I'm assuming with the "All the time" statement that they have been doing it for a while and since Burnout is the only title to actually say that it does support HDTV (more BS) then I take that statement to mean 480p and that's it.

This topic just keeps rubbing me the wrong way. One of the main reasons I bought the Xbox is to run it in High Definition like Microsoft promised. Sure 480p is nice but it is not high definition.:mad:

Azazel
05-06-2002, 02:52 AM
In answer to your poll, yes I have an HDTV that I use for gaming (as well as movies and Tv). I just had it calibrated by the people at Hitachi and when the technician saw that I was playing video games on it he recommended I stop.

Everyone has been saying that HDTV's are ok for gaming as long as you dont leave the game on pause for long periods of time, but the technician told me that the games actually wear down the picture quality. Im still gaming though.

Tv pic below

MidniteArrow
05-06-2002, 02:56 AM
Games don't wear down the piture any more than any other signal. We just tend to put them on pause and leave them there. That does cause a problem. Also, if you are playing a game that has constant graphics (such as a health bar in a Halo type game or a scoreboard in a sports type game), that constant graphic can cause problems. It will not be any worse than a constant graphic from a television broadcast, but constant graphics are not very common in television broadcasts.

BTW: there's a GUI option in this thread (at the top I believe) that allows you to cast votes.

l Maximus l
05-06-2002, 04:25 PM
No...there are no games, CURRENTLY, that support anything higher than 480p. Burnout makes the claim that it supports 720p, however, I haven't seen it or tried it to know. Admittingly, the game doesn't interest me at all. I'd take it if I won it or something, but, I wouldn't buy it, probably.

As for still images causing burn-in on HDTVs: yes, it can. However, there are measures one can take to prevent this from happening: Turning the HDTV's screen off when it's on pause and turning the contrast down to 50%. Also, it's wise not to play longer than a few hours without giving the HDTV a break. Besides, it's good to take a few breaks anyway!! lol :D

As for Halo being a risk...well, if you play multi-player, it's hardly a risk because if you get killed, your power gauge disappears...also, the crosshairs of the weapon go away, too, therefore, the entire screen is moving and there are no still images.

Also, if you take a game like NFL Fever or any other NFL game, between each play you are directed to a "choosing plays screen", which is a completely different image, therefore, minimal still images are on the screen at once.

A game like Morrowind, you might was to make sure the contrast is down to 50% and giving the HDTV a few breathers, though. Rarely does your power gauge or other still images go away.

Just my $0.02 :)

LynxFX
05-06-2002, 04:42 PM
I just realized I voted wrong on the poll. I thought the question was "Has anyone seen a 1080i or 720p signal come out of their Xbox?" which I voted no. Didn't realize the thread and poll were unrelated.
P.S. I hate when people do that. :)

Anyway yes I do own an HD capable projector. I wouldn't mind getting a rear projection set as well for normal tv viewing.

MidniteArrow
05-06-2002, 05:05 PM
Lynxfx: I wouldn't go so far as to say "unrelated". I will make them two separate threads next time so as to not "confuse" you! (in jest of course)

DZNUTZ
05-06-2002, 05:08 PM
k guys..maybe u could help me out..for the billionth time...(didn't want to start a whole new thread)....it looks like the remodeling in the house is gonna take a lil more money then previously expected (for those that don't know..i'm moving into a new place and was probably gonna get an new hdtv)..and it don't look like we'll have 3gz to blow on a new 65" toshiba hdtv. (at least not right away). so anyways it just so happens that a friend of mine is moving across the nation and is selling his 52" RCA P-529-29 , which i could probably aquire for 800 dollars or less. right now i'm still waiting for a fax sheet w/the specs from rca...but i know its not an hdtv...and since it doesn't seem like many games or taking advantage of that feature ( at this moment ) anyways....do ya'll think its a good deal and i should take him up on it?

CALzinger
05-06-2002, 05:12 PM
IF in any case, a 480i or 720i signal is produced when a game is made, could the damage to the tv be prevented? I got a 53" Sony TV 1080i resolution, and I DONT WANT IT TO GET MESSED UP.
Believe me, these digital TVs are sensitive.
Could i buy a kit or something to prevent my TV from getting destroyed?

MidniteArrow
05-06-2002, 05:24 PM
To the RCA question:
There are currently many games that take advantage of HDTVs, sort of. All Xbox games (save one) output at least a 480p signal. Most non-HDTVs will not display this progressive scan image. In that respect, an HDTV is good for Xbox gaming. Eventually, I expect many will support it, so that $800, to me, would be wasteful. I doubt this RCA supports 480p.

To the burn-in question:
No, you can not prevent the damage. It's a double edged sword. The damage is caused by the viewing of the image. The only way to prevent the damage, is not to view the image. I think we can all agree not viewing the image is not a viable solution. For now, HDTV gaming will be a game for the pseudo-wealthy. Plasma screens do not suffer burn-in, but have a 10 year lifespan anyway. Projection TVs are getting much better about burn in, but still have some issues. I'm expecting it to cost 1-2 thousand a year to maintain the HDTV.

As far as the "breaks" between viewings of the images are concerned, these breaks will not prevent the burn in. To illustrate this point, imagine an analogy: I am beating the tar out of a "victim". Let us assume I beat him for an hour straight. He will be very badly damaged. Now let us assume that I beat him up for 10 minutes, take a 1 minute break, beat him for 10 minutes, take a 1 minute break, so on and so forth for an hour. Will he be as badly damaged as if I beat him for an hour straight? No. Will he still be beat down to the point of no recognition? Yes. The burn in will not be as bad with the breaks, but it will still be there.

LynxFX
05-06-2002, 06:24 PM
DZNUTZ, just make sure it is a digital tv and supports 480p. Like MidniteArrow said you can take advantage of all games on the Xbox, except 007 Agent Under Fire (480i port with only some sections in 480p. EA is the worst).

More Burn In advice. :)
It CAN be prevented if you take the proper precautions. I think Midnitearrows analogy is alittle extreme and not nescarily true. It would be true if your set wasn't calibrated and the contrast, brightness settings were set high and you were trying to cause burn in. Then yes, running it like this for an hour, taking a break then running it again wouldn't really be saving it. Now take a calibrated set, and you play for a few hours, no pausing, normal play. You quit, come back after an hour and play again you wouldn't be harming the tv any more than watching regular tv. We aren't talking about diminishing returns now, maybe 10 years ago when the technology was in its infincy but not now.

Plasma screens can get burn in just like a CRT projection tv. The only tech out that is immune is DLP and D'ILA projection and I believe LCD projection as well.

DBXNY
05-06-2002, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Lynxfx
DZNUTZ, just make sure it is a digital tv and supports 480p. Like MidniteArrow said you can take advantage of all games on the Xbox, except 007 Agent Under Fire (480i port with only some sections in 480p. EA is the worst).

More Burn In advice. :)
It CAN be prevented if you take the proper precautions. I think Midnitearrows analogy is alittle extreme and not nescarily true. It would be true if your set wasn't calibrated and the contrast, brightness settings were set high and you were trying to cause burn in. Then yes, running it like this for an hour, taking a break then running it again wouldn't really be saving it. Now take a calibrated set, and you play for a few hours, no pausing, normal play. You quit, come back after an hour and play again you wouldn't be harming the tv any more than watching regular tv. We aren't talking about diminishing returns now, maybe 10 years ago when the technology was in its infincy but not now.

Plasma screens can get burn in just like a CRT projection tv. The only tech out that is immune is DLP and D'ILA projection and I believe LCD projection as well.

I agree man. Also you're right about LCD not being subject to burn-in.

Midnite: Any display that uses phosphor as the source of light is subject to burn-in. This includes Plasma sets - they use plasma gas in the sets to react with colored phosphors that display the image you see.

The problem with displaying static images on the screen for extended periods is that the phosphors used to display them are actually getting "burned-in" more at the same time than the phoshors used to display the moving parts of the picture. As long as you properly calibrate your set as Lynxfx said and you vary your viewing habits, I'd say it certainly possible to avoid burn-in at least for the time that you'll own and use the set.


BTW, regarding regular TV: I don't know what stations you guys are watching, but all the local stations in my area, and all the non-premium stations on my DirectTV display static images continuously (station logos), which can lead to burn-in.

Oh, and on the topic of the post, I guess I vote "yes" as we only play our X-box on an HDTV display.

MidniteArrow
05-06-2002, 10:26 PM
Not all displays that use phosphors are subject to burn in - at least not in the used lifespan of the product.

Viewsonic G810. It has displayed my windows start bar almost 24 hours a day for the last 3 years. No burn in. The reason is that the consumer will not tolerate it, so the display was engineered to allow such use. While I was sort of speaking without expertise when I stated that Plasma displays would not be as prone to burn-in, here's my logic: one main use for Plasma displays is as a monitor for a computer signal. Computer displays have been engineered for some time to display constant graphics without burn-in. I would be surprised if the plasma technology engineering did not take this into account. The television market, however, has not had this constraint. Since these displays are used to display television broadcasts, the Engineering constraints would have been able to assume that the phosphors would be used in an average manner.

While I was not speaking with expertise, I would be surprised if I were wrong. I have difficulty believing the consumer base for plasma technology would tolerate burn-in. They are used as computer monitors all the time - a use that is much more straining on a display than Xbox gaming.

DBXNY
05-07-2002, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by MidniteArrow
Not all displays that use phosphors are subject to burn in - at least not in the used lifespan of the product.

Viewsonic G810. It has displayed my windows start bar almost 24 hours a day for the last 3 years. No burn in. The reason is that the consumer will not tolerate it, so the display was engineered to allow such use. While I was sort of speaking without expertise when I stated that Plasma displays would not be as prone to burn-in, here's my logic: one main use for Plasma displays is as a monitor for a computer signal. Computer displays have been engineered for some time to display constant graphics without burn-in. I would be surprised if the plasma technology engineering did not take this into account. The television market, however, has not had this constraint. Since these displays are used to display television broadcasts, the Engineering constraints would have been able to assume that the phosphors would be used in an average manner.

While I was not speaking with expertise, I would be surprised if I were wrong. I have difficulty believing the consumer base for plasma technology would tolerate burn-in. They are used as computer monitors all the time - a use that is much more straining on a display than Xbox gaming.

Midnite, actually I think you do bring up a good point as I do recall being told once something about since the inception of SVGA, advanced technologies in computer displays have reduced/eliminated the need for screensavers. I have no idea what these "advanced technologies" are. The only thing I know of is the energy-star program that pretty much puts your monitor/computer to sleep after a certain period of time.

I do know, however, that plasma displays are subject to burnin by nature, but it's totally possible (and probable) that some manufacturers may add in features that, when used, will reduce the possibility. (like grey bars for 4:3 material, slightly shifting images on the display, or even more advanced stuff)

LynxFX
05-07-2002, 01:46 AM
You are both right in the computer monitor respects. Burn in for a monitor is pretty much gone. Now screensavers are just to get fake fish moving around. :)

On the expensive plasma screens for tv viewing they actually have a technology to 'unburn' as they call it. It will display an exact opposite picture compared to what cells appear to have burn in kinda like how you would cancel out soundwaves. You create one that is on the exact opposite side of the spectrum. This can actually repair cells, pixels I guess that became fatigued. It is pretty cool stuff when you really start to break it all down. BTW, this 'unburn' technology is actually software and not built into the plasma screen itself.

MidniteArrow
05-07-2002, 02:37 AM
Well, that sucks. I hope you are wrong with regards to plasma and burn in, but I fear you are right. I don't want to spend 10k on a display that will get burn in. I would like to get the benefit of the broader spectrum of resolutions (for hooking a computer signal up to the display). I found one that goes all the way up to 1080p. OMG its specs look sweet.

K-Rock
05-07-2002, 07:51 AM
You guys make it sound like the HDTV is gonna break like 2 weeks after you get it and start playing games. How long is the life of an HDTV?...it's gotta be a couple of Years.

K-Rock

LynxFX
05-07-2002, 02:06 PM
Nah, I think we are just being extreme with alot of 'worst case scenarios'.

All CRT bases sets whether HDTV or not have a lifespan. They do start to fade or lose brightness after a few years, nothing major and most projection tvs have a life of around 25,000-30,000 hours. Give or take a year.

I'll tell you though, gaming on a bigscreen especially if it is digital or HDTV is a whole new world and you will never look back. It would be really amazing when the true HD games come which is why alot of us are so ****ed at Burnout since it says it is HD yet it really is just like every other game out there.

MidniteArrow
05-07-2002, 02:11 PM
Well, if you try really hard, you can probably cause fairly bad burn in in 2-3 months. However, if you know about the issue and what causes it, your set should be fine for more like 2-3 years without serious burn-in issues. Just don't crank up the brightness or play the same game all the time. Mediation in all things is good.