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Brevity
07-21-2002, 08:46 PM
I just put this up here b/c it was not already. I am not saying its good or bad, it just is.
quote:

This weekend, a group announced the progress of their attempt to run Linux on the video-game system. And the bad news for Microsoft is that the method is perfectly legal.




quote:

According to an article published this week in ZDNet, the programmer from Germany Michael Steil has managed to make progress toward his goal of running Linux on Microsoft's Xbox console. Although the software giant has been catching all the "Xbox hackers" with pressure from its lawyers, this time the method is said to be totally legal.

Steil has started to talk about the new application called "Linuxpreview," which should get the status of first application to run on Xbox without using tools from the official Xbox Software Development Kit (SDK). The application is also one of the first to work on the transformation of the Xbox into a Linux-based PC, informed ZDNet.

For the joy of the Linux community, LinuxPreview makes the famous penguin appear on the Xbox start-up screen (picture) and advises that Xbox Linux is "Coming Soon." The information about the application was found in the project led by Steil, called Xbox Linux Project. The German programmer told the website through email that Linuxpreview was a "small application," but that it represented much since it is the first to show "that it is possible to write an application that has not been developed with Microsoft's SDK and does not contain any Microsoft code."




http://www.infosatellite.com/images/articlepics/xbox_linux-project.gif

Exatox
07-22-2002, 07:03 AM
Who cares about linux anyway.

Dre
07-22-2002, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Exatox
Who cares about linux anyway.

Quite a few people. Theres even a 20k reward for the first person to get linux running on the box legally.

Bakero
07-22-2002, 08:26 AM
:)

20K only? Anyway this is gonna be cool!

:D

Magnum Blast
07-22-2002, 10:44 AM
I think its 200K for the first person to run it. That gives alot of incentive to work night and day on it. Hehe watch that 200k be in Canadian dollars.

Batman2372
07-22-2002, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Exatox
Who cares about linux anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Xbox (had a Halo party Saturday night), but it's Linux that lets me put food on the table (and the cars, and the house, and the Xbox, blah, blah, blah)

I wish I had the time to try to do the project (it's actually two different goals at $100,000 each), but there are too many guys already way ahead of me. Someone's going to get it soon, and I for one am glad. Good for them

Spaztic
07-22-2002, 01:12 PM
yeah 100k in the bank would definatly be nice! To bad it is really to late to start this project!

Snoopy7548
07-22-2002, 01:41 PM
if i got the 200k, id buy a ferrari and a rolls royce. lol:D :)

Robbiem01
07-22-2002, 05:28 PM
You couldn't afford both a ferarri and rolls royce with only $200,000 (unless you bought used.) Some ferraris cost more then 200K by themselves.

mother
07-22-2002, 08:50 PM
Who cares about linux anyway.


__________________
okay well i guess you never used linux on your pc. if you follow and use linux, then you would know that it is pretty tight, imagine a os like windows made for gaming. hey if its legal, then im all for it. but hey if they do come out with a linux for the xbox legally, man o man watch out...

Snoopy7548
07-23-2002, 09:44 AM
cause it could "revolutionize" the xbox. it will let people make their own games, programs, etc., and they'll be able to run them on the xbox.

darianX
07-23-2002, 11:38 AM
That article is totally bogus...they have NOT "legally" made ANYTHING run...this is direct from xbox-linux.sourceforge.net (the homepage for this garbage) -

6 July 2002: The first Xbox program created without the Xbox SDK is available. Look at the photos here and here and here. Download the source here and a zip file with the CD image here. This is the first legal homebrew application! Of course you will need a modded Xbox. Microsoft, could you please sign this application? (bold added by me)

A modded Xbox is not legal...but it's perfectly legal for Linux eggheads who never pay for software because "it should be free". I abhor the "linux community"......

Batman2372
07-23-2002, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by darianX

A modded Xbox is not legal...but it's perfectly legal for Linux eggheads who never pay for software because "it should be free". I abhor the "linux community"......

A modded Xbox is very legal. Just like I can take my lawnmower and make it into a giant blender, I can take my purchased Xbox and make it into anything I want. The illegality comes into place when you start dealing with the Intellectual property, which in the case of the Xbox is built into the hardware. The previous Linux-for-Xbox projects dealt with a stolen Xbox SDK, which is very illegal. These guys are completely in the clear.

Before you start blasting the Linux and Open Source community, get your facts straight.

As I stated earlier, I am an Open Source (ie Linux) Developer. I make MONEY doing that. I don't have a beef with anyone making money off of their work. What I DO have a problem with is when a corporation tells me that their way of doing things is the only way they will allow it to happen, case closed.

Let me give you a scenario. I write a small program in perl for a Linux operating system with a GPL license. I can still charge whatever I want for it. I don't have to give it out at all if I don't want to. Whoever buys that software and can repackage it, tweak it, whatever they want with it, but with the following major condition: they must release the source code. That way, anyone that gets it can look at it, try to make it better, whatever. Nowhere does it say you have to give it away THE PRODUCT for free.

If I'm allowed to take my car apart, put on new pieces (ie tweaking), to make it run the way I want to, why shouldn't I be able to do the same with some software?

Granted, the majority of people could care less. But those of us that want to tweak our cars/software to better do what we want should be allowed to do so. Microsoft is very bad about letting you in to see how the product you paid for works, while the Linux side of things is much more open.

That's why I'm excited about this project.

darianX
07-24-2002, 02:35 PM
If modchips for the Xbox were legal, why is Microsoft shutting down places that are selling them etc? And from what I can see, there's an encryption layer in the ROM, so I can't see how bypassing or breaking the encryption is legal.

I know all about Linux and how it works with the GPL...no need for a lecture about the glories of open source. The point I was making dealt with the cold, hard fact that the overwhelming vast majority of Linux users won't pay a dime for software because they have the communal thought process. And the GPL means nothing to those people - they see "FREE" written all over it. Why do you think Loki went under? No one bought their products, plain and simple, no matter what kind of license came with it.

As for Microsoft not letting you see how their copyrighted, patented product works, that's just tough titties man. If you don't like it, don't buy it. They produced it so they'll do whatever they want with it; the analogy between a car and software doesn't fly and everyone knows it. There is a difference between cars and software because of titles and licensing. When you pay for the car, you get the title. When you buy software, you're not buying the code, you're buying a license to use the software within the manufacturers limits. We can go around and around about that all week but I think my point is made.

Granted, Microsoft will probably let "Linux on the Xbox" slide because they know only about 17 people will go through the effort to put it on their console (see PS2 Linux for that), but the method to get it to install and run is a different matter. They will crack down hard on anyone who runs afoul of their conditions because they know very well that all the hot air about getting other OSes and such to run on their box is an open door to piracy.

BTW, I run a Linux server and write lots of stuff in PHP, so I have no complaints about Linux in general. What I dislike is the rampant zealotry, ivory tower and anti-corporate air that surrounds a great portion of the "community". Most of those folks need to grow up and get into the real world, where things are much different than in their basements.

Batman2372
07-24-2002, 03:07 PM
1. As I said before, the group doing this particular project has already received legal clearance. End of story

2. You're still stereotyping. Just because people use linux or open source doesn't automatically make them think that we should live in a utopian technological society where all software and work should be free. Yes, there are some. But there are just as many people that believe that if the software isn't Microsoft endorsed, it's crap, shouldn't be allowed to run, and squashed out of existence so they can "get on track" with the Microsoft way of thinking.

I agree with you that the "Microsoft is bad, Linux is Good" mentality is outrageous and wrong. I personally run both Windows and Redhat on my PC. Microsoft and friends make some great stuff. I just have a problem with the fact that if I buy something, I should be able to do whatever I want with it, and I'm not allowed to with Microsoft products. That to me is too much power in the hands of an individual company.

blindrocket
07-25-2002, 06:54 PM
Wow, that looks JUST like my post at XenGen.

:rolleyes:

Robbiem01
07-26-2002, 04:03 PM
AloneInTheDark: Please dont post questions like that without even giveing any effort to finding the anwser on your own. A search on google would have easily anwsered that question. Or you could try www.linux.com (common sense)

Plewis
07-26-2002, 04:19 PM
aloneinthedark it looks like ur name suits u well:D

Brevity
07-26-2002, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by blindrocket
Wow, that looks JUST like my post at XenGen.

:rolleyes:
Uh, ya I did that. I like to spread the word. All credit for this one goes to whoever wants it. I dont care.

No Fear 23
07-26-2002, 10:20 PM
god im a retard...
what is lunix?????:eek:

GaMMa
09-05-2002, 03:21 PM
Well looks like they've got linux fully up running, there's an article at slashdot.org about it, they've got KDE, Gnome, Star Office, X and Tux Racer working... Tuxracer only gets 1 FPS though :(. http://slashdot.org/articles/02/09/02/2211237.shtml?tid=106

Just started using linux about a month ago and it rules. Nothing EVER crashes, no freezing EVER, nothing... it's stable, fast and everything is free, plus it can run almost every Windows program using wine. For linux users out there I'm on Gentoo w/ fluxbox, and I don't ever want to go back to Windows XP. I'm on linux now.

bwn82k
09-05-2002, 04:25 PM
That have successfully gotten SuSe 8.0 Linux running on Xbox LEGALLY (with mod chip). Today they released a tutorial to help you install SuSe 8 on your Xbox. You can get it at xbox-linux.sourgeforge.net. It says you do need some good knowledge of Linux in order to get it up and running. I suggest the rest of you wait a little more for them to perfect the process of installing Linux on the Xbox. They're taking baby steps right now. Give them some time and I'm sure you start to see vast improvements.

Xmun
09-05-2002, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by bwn82k
That have successfully gotten SuSe 8.0 Linux running on Xbox LEGALLY (with mod chip). Today they released a tutorial to help you install SuSe 8 on your Xbox. You can get it at xbox-linux.sourgeforge.net. It says you do need some good knowledge of Linux in order to get it up and running. I suggest the rest of you wait a little more for them to perfect the process of installing Linux on the Xbox. They're taking baby steps right now. Give them some time and I'm sure you start to see vast improvements.

Wich raises the ultimate question: Why?
Why put so much time and effort into something so useless?

(And "Just because........." is not an acceptable answer. :p )

GaMMa
09-05-2002, 05:17 PM
If you can't afford a PC you can make one for about 270 dollars, with a Geforce 3, P3 700mhz (Xbox processor proven to run at 777mhz...), and a 8GB HDD... Sounds too good to be true if you ask me, plus you can hook it up to a TV. It performs all the functions Xbox does, and can download Mp3s and browse the internet. Of course I don't see how you could get this working if you don't have a PC... seeing that if you didn't have a PC you couldn't find out about it.

jschelm
09-05-2002, 06:20 PM
The thing that keeps cracking me up is this whole legality deal. Do you guys really think modding the XBox is legal? No way. Why is it that all of the companies that manufacture mod chips are overseas? Maybe because it is harder to sue them. The simple matter is that in order to mod an XBox you have to do two things a) break MS's encryption which is highly illegal and b) use some of thier code from the bios in your mod chip which is also illegal. Now I am not against modding the XBox by any means. I Think MS should have put MP3 playback on it to begin with, but at least if you are going to do it, don't try and pretend that there is nothing at all wrong with it.

Xmun
09-05-2002, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by GaMMa
If you can't afford a PC you can make one for about 270 dollars, with a Geforce 3, P3 700mhz (Xbox processor proven to run at 777mhz...), and a 8GB HDD... Sounds too good to be true if you ask me, plus you can hook it up to a TV. It performs all the functions Xbox does, and can download Mp3s and browse the internet. Of course I don't see how you could get this working if you don't have a PC... seeing that if you didn't have a PC you couldn't find out about it.

With no input device other than the controller and communicator and a graphics and sound card made specifically for the console how would the PC substitute idea work?

They couldn't legally produce or distribute any programs to work in that regard without breaking the law by not paying MS the proper licencing fees for using it's hardware.

Any such attempt would be shut down much like the Mod chip makers today.

Once again this seems more like a pack of Linux loons (...a la Indrema/Tuxbox.) overestimating their self worth and losing perspective in their strange obsession with Microsoft.

GaMMa
09-05-2002, 06:49 PM
They've actually made a modified USB keyboard/mouse combo that any idiot could make. Also they will eventually be able to utilize the graphics card.. it'll take a few weeks... look at the games out there now... doom, quake, pong, space invaders... it's using the graphics card, but obviously not pushing the hardware. The sound card has already been put into use, users can go online and download MP3s and play them in linux... Give them time they'll get the graphics portion working.

Xmun
09-05-2002, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by GaMMa
They've actually made a modified USB keyboard/mouse combo that any idiot could make.

I severely doubt that.

Idiots are quite the dull lot if the word on the street is to be believed.

As well as bypassing specific proprietary MS USB designs would be them hitting that whole "Legality" thing again.

Which sort of squashes the whole "Legally" tag they are throwing around.


Originally posted by GaMMa
Also they will eventually be able to utilize the graphics card.. it'll take a few weeks... look at the games out there now... doom, quake, pong, space invaders... it's using the graphics card, but obviously not pushing the hardware. The sound card has already been put into use, users can go online and download MP3s and play them in linux... Give them time they'll get the graphics portion working.

Ah, so all that work is so they can make a port box for REALLY old games.

Neato!

Nice to see they set their ambitions so high. :rolleyes:
Even if they manage to harness the hardware they can't distribute anything on a large scale without running into that whole "Legality" roadblock.

(Not to mention harming the very industry they are trying to "free" from the clutches of "Teh Ev0L MIcr0Sux!" by pirating their software to run on it. :p )

It will remain strictly the domain of a handful of Linux rubes with too much free time on their hands.

"Why play brand new fully functional Xbox games like Doom3 when we can sort of port the original Doom! Huzzah + Excelsior!"

As for the Online/MP3 thing, I really doubt anyone is going to go to all that trouble of converting a perfectly good Xbox to do what even a bargain bin old school PC can do.

As you stated earlier you would essentially need a PC to pull this off in the first place.

All in all, the whole thing is a joke.

netranger6
09-05-2002, 10:02 PM
LInux, shminux. I have my current Kernel hashed out on this drive, but haven't used it since win2K kicks some major booty in my opinion. Quite frankly, how would Linux running on my Xbox make it any more efficient?? Don't see the reward here.

DeathKnightMaF
09-05-2002, 10:26 PM
Xmun = teh winnar!!

Xmun
09-05-2002, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by DeathKnightMaF
Xmun = teh winnar!!

I prefer to be referred to as "That guy who pees in other peoples pools."

Dre
09-05-2002, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by netranger6
LInux, shminux. I have my current Kernel hashed out on this drive, but haven't used it since win2K kicks some major booty in my opinion. Quite frankly, how would Linux running on my Xbox make it any more efficient?? Don't see the reward here.

If you cannot see the reward, maybe you should open your eyes a little more? :D

2 words... homebrew software.

Xmun
09-05-2002, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Dre
2 words... homebrew software.

1 word....illegal.


Which subverts the "Legal" tag the Linux community is throwing around does it not?

Not to mention the reprecussions of supporting that sort of thing.
Expect them to suffer the same fate the Mod chip community is now at MS hands.

Which is to say a quick and severe stomping.

netranger6
09-06-2002, 11:01 AM
Big deal on the "Home Brew" software! It would take 2 years for anything great to come of it, or anything worth playing for that matter, so why bother? Just pay up for you games, and compensate those who spend hours and hours making the hair stand up on end. Do you really think Halo could have been home brewed and released for free?? I think not.

Dre
09-06-2002, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by netranger6
Big deal on the "Home Brew" software! It would take 2 years for anything great to come of it, or anything worth playing for that matter, so why bother? Just pay up for you games, and compensate those who spend hours and hours making the hair stand up on end. Do you really think Halo could have been home brewed and released for free?? I think not.

Holy crap.. how can you be so obtuse?

1. take 2 years?? There is already software available to play Divx movies, mp3s, emulators.

2. ..."or anything worth playing for that matter"? IF the linux community decides to develop Xbox games, whats your beef with it? But, home-brew games have NEVER been the focus of ANY modchips to ANY console., so I don't know why you even brought that up.

3. I do pay for my games. This isn't a question of me ripping off companies. Its a question of adding functionality to my Xbox.

4. Yes Halo could have been home-brewn and released for free.. why not? You said you have Linux on your box but yet you are obviously oblivious to the technology and its community if you can't grasp how people from all around the world can come together and produce great software. For free.

If you can't see the advantages, there is something wrong with you.

Dre
09-06-2002, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Xmun


1 word....illegal.


1 word. Misinformed. If the software was written WITHOUT an Xbox dev kit, it is totally legal. Read the ToA and maybe do a little www.google.com search next time.

jschelm
09-06-2002, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Dre


1 word. Misinformed. If the software was written WITHOUT an Xbox dev kit, it is totally legal. Read the ToA and maybe do a little www.google.com search next time.

Dre, just because the software itself is legal doesn't mean that the XBox required to run it is.

Dre
09-06-2002, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by jschelm


Dre, just because the software itself is legal doesn't mean that the XBox required to run it is.

Since when is modding the Xbox illegal? Please point me to a respectable link that outright states this. If I turn my computer into a toaster is Dell allowed to sue me? Hell no. I paid for the Xbox and I own it and in turn am allowed to do whatever I like to it. However, if I start pirating games, then yes I agree THAT is illegal.

jschelm
09-06-2002, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Dre


Since when is modding the Xbox illegal? Please point me to a respectable link that outright states this. If I turn my computer into a toaster is Dell allowed to sue me? Hell no. I paid for the Xbox and I own it and in turn am allowed to do whatever I like to it. However, if I start pirating games, then yes I agree THAT is illegal.

There is a link on this board right now under the title of Read this before modding your xbox or something along those lines.

You can't draw that conclusion. IF you turn your XBox (or Dell computer) into a toaster, that is fine. If you have to sit down, reverse engineer it, crack through security and unencrypt codes, and then re-use those codes in your own program to make the toast then it isn't. There are many things in the XBox that are protected by copyrights so using those things (such as the bios inside a mod chip having chunks of the MS bios) is illegal. Also, there are laws against breaking anything encrypted. Be that Macrovision, Cable TV, Satellite TV, or your XBox bios. So even if you are able to find a mod chip that doesn't have the MS bios in it you are breaking the law because the installation of that mod chip is there for one reason. Defeating the security and the encryption that MS put into the XBox, not to mention the fact that there is no way that the mod chip could have been legally made in the first place.

If you need me to I can surf the web for the exact US law that these things are covered under.

Dre
09-06-2002, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by jschelm
There is a link on this board right now under the title of Read this before modding your xbox or something along those lines.


I read that already and its a different issue altogether. Its a speculation that MS will not allow modded Xbox's on Xbox live and does not discuss the legality of the modchip.


If you need me to I can surf the web for the exact US law that these things are covered under.

I'd like that because I'm still not convinced its illegal although you do make a good argument. And it is just that... an argument. So was my opinion though and I don't deny its a 2 sided blade but I think the whole illegal issue has been polluted with internet rumors.

jschelm
09-06-2002, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Dre


I read that already and its a different issue altogether. Its a speculation that MS will not allow modded Xbox's on Xbox live and does not discuss the legality of the modchip.

I'd like that because I'm still not convinced its illegal although you do make a good argument. And it is just that... an argument. So was my opinion though and I don't deny its a 2 sided blade but I think the whole illegal issue has been polluted with internet rumors.

It took me a little while, but I knew it was out there.

V.C.1. Protecting copyright protection systems: 17 U.S.C. § 1201

Subject to a litany of exceptions, 17 U.S.C. § 1201 addresses
circumvention of technological measures intended to protect copyrighted works. To "circumvent a technological measure" means to "descramble a scrambled work,
17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(3)(A). Specifically, this provision
places a blanket prohibition on "circumvent[ing] a technological measure that
effectively controls access to a work protected under" copyright law. Congress
delayed implementation of this provision until October 28, 2000, to give the
Librarian of Congress the opportunity to define a class of works deemed to fall
outside the prohibition, a definition that is to be revisited every three years.
Moreover, Congress provided numerous statutory exceptions, which cover a wide
range of areas including: exempting libraries, law enforcement and intelligence
activities; reverse engineering; encryption research; preventing access of minors
to Internet material; accessing personally identifying information; and security
testing. See 17 §§ 1201(d)-(j). Therefore prosecutors should
review all of the possible exceptions as well as the determinations of the
Librarian of Congress before bringing a case.

In addition to prohibiting simple acts of circumvention, Congress also
prohibited the trafficking in circumvention technology. For instance, Congress
prohibited trafficking in product or technology that is primarily produced (or
has limited alternative commercial uses) or is marketed either to circumvent "a
technological measure that effectively controls access" to copyrighted works,
17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(2). Civil litigation has already been brought under this
provision. Universal City Studios, Inc. v. Reimerdes, No. 00 Civ. 0277
LAK, 2000 WL 1160678 (S.D.N.Y. August 17, 2000) (finding violation of statute for
posting program on the Internet to circumvent technology for encrypting
copyrighted works in DVD format and ordering injunctive and declaratory relief).
In addition, Congress prohibited trafficking in a product or technology that is
primarily produced to circumvent "protection afforded by a technological measure"
that "effectively protects" the rights of a copyright owner,
17 U.S.C. § 1201(b)(1). These provisions are subject to all of the myriad
exceptions mentioned above, except for the delay of implementation and the
exemption of specific works relating to determinations of the Librarian of
Congress.

Similar to the other prohibitions on trafficking in circumvention
technologies, Congress established prohibitions on trafficking in certain analog
video equipment and products that do not comply with "automatic gain control copy
control technology" or "colorstripe copy control technology."
17 U.S.C. § 1201(k)(1). Those technologies are not to be used to prevent or
limit consumer copying, except in specific circumstances.
17 U.S.C. § 1201(k)(2). Many of the operative terms utilized in 1201(k) have
been defined in 1201(k)(4)(E) as having, "the meanings that are commonly
understood in the consumer electronics and motion picture industries" as of 1998.

Xmun
09-06-2002, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Dre


1 word. Misinformed. If the software was written WITHOUT an Xbox dev kit, it is totally legal. Read the ToA and maybe do a little www.google.com search next time.

Any program written and distributed to use MS proprietary hardware/software is required by law to pay licencing fees to do so as well as have MS approval for distribution of software made in any form.

While you could make it legally, the minute you began distributing it to others in any form without MS approval is where you fall into the "illegal" category.


NO XBOX SOFTWARE PRODUCT(S) MAY BE PUBLISHED, OR DISTRIBUTED TO END USERS, EXCEPT BY A LICENSED PUBLISHER PURSUANT TO AN XBOX DEVELOPMENT KIT AND XBOX PUBLISHER LICENSE AGREEMENT EXECUTED BY MICROSOFT

http://www.xbox.com/dev/contentproviders.htm

jschelm covered the other bit quite nicely in his previous post.

Dre
09-06-2002, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by jschelm


It took me a little while, but I knew it was out there.

V.C.1. Protecting copyright protection systems: 17 U.S.C. § 1201

Subject to a litany of exceptions, 17 U.S.C. § 1201 addresses
circumvention of technological measures intended to protect copyrighted works. To "circumvent a technological measure" means to "descramble a scrambled work,
17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(3)(A). Specifically, this provision
places a blanket prohibition on "circumvent a technological measure that
effectively controls access to a work protected under" copyright law. Congress
delayed implementation of this provision until October 28, 2000, to give the
Librarian of Congress the opportunity to define a class of works deemed to fall
outside the prohibition, a definition that is to be revisited every three years.
Moreover,[i] Congress provided numerous statutory exceptions, which cover a wide
range of areas including: exempting libraries, law enforcement and intelligence
activities; reverse engineering; encryption research; preventing access of minors
to Internet material; accessing personally identifying information; and security
testing. See 17 §§ 1201(d)-(j). Therefore prosecutors should
review all of the possible exceptions as well as the determinations of the
Librarian of Congress before bringing a case.

In addition to prohibiting simple acts of circumvention, Congress also
prohibited the trafficking in circumvention technology. For instance, Congress
prohibited trafficking in product or technology that is primarily produced (or
has limited alternative commercial uses) or is marketed either to circumvent "a
technological measure that effectively controls access" to copyrighted works,
17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(2). Civil litigation has already been brought under this
provision. Universal City Studios, Inc. v. Reimerdes, No. 00 Civ. 0277
LAK, 2000 WL 1160678 (S.D.N.Y. August 17, 2000) (finding violation of statute for
posting program on the Internet to circumvent technology for encrypting
copyrighted works in DVD format and ordering injunctive and declaratory relief).
In addition, Congress prohibited trafficking in a product or technology that is
primarily produced to circumvent "protection afforded by a technological measure"
that "effectively protects" the rights of a copyright owner,
17 U.S.C. § 1201(b)(1). These provisions are subject to all of the myriad
exceptions mentioned above, except for the delay of implementation and the
exemption of specific works relating to determinations of the Librarian of
Congress.

Similar to the other prohibitions on trafficking in circumvention
technologies, Congress established prohibitions on trafficking in certain analog
video equipment and products that do not comply with "automatic gain control copy
control technology" or "colorstripe copy control technology."
17 U.S.C. § 1201(k)(1). Those technologies are not to be used to prevent or
limit consumer copying, except in specific circumstances.
17 U.S.C. § 1201(k)(2). Many of the operative terms utilized in 1201(k) have
been defined in 1201(k)(4)(E) as having, "the meanings that are commonly
understood in the consumer electronics and motion picture industries" as of 1998.

Thanks bro. I'm an engineer (well.. in 4 months anyways..) not a lawyer, so that was hard to read :D

The one thing I'm unsure of its meaning and hopefully you can help is the stuff I italicized in my quote of your thread.

Dre
09-06-2002, 02:07 PM
This is from the Linux Xbox webpage:

http://xbox-linux.sourceforge.net/faq.php

The DMCA forbids circumventing copy protection, but this is not our goal. We develop an alternative operating system for the Xbox gaming console. A side product could be the ability to run unsigned code, but this alone does not make it possible to play pirated copies of games. Nevertheless, if you live inside the USA or another country with a similar legislation, and you work on Xbox hacking rather than on Linux developing, you can of course join the project anonymously.

Dre
09-06-2002, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Dre
This is from the Linux Xbox webpage:

http://xbox-linux.sourceforge.net/faq.php

The DMCA forbids circumventing copy protection, but this is not our goal. We develop an alternative operating system for the Xbox gaming console. A side product could be the ability to run unsigned code, but this alone does not make it possible to play pirated copies of games. Nevertheless, if you live inside the USA or another country with a similar legislation, and you work on Xbox hacking rather than on Linux developing, you can of course join the project anonymously.

And at the bottom of the page...

Everything done on this project is for the sole purpose of writing interoperable software under Sect. 1201 (f) Reverse Engineering exception of the DMCA

Xmun
09-06-2002, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Dre
This is from the Linux Xbox webpage:

http://xbox-linux.sourceforge.net/faq.php

The DMCA forbids circumventing copy protection, but this is not our goal. We develop an alternative operating system for the Xbox gaming console. A side product could be the ability to run unsigned code, but this alone does not make it possible to play pirated copies of games. Nevertheless, if you live inside the USA or another country with a similar legislation, and you work on Xbox hacking rather than on Linux developing, you can of course join the project anonymously.

Completely nullified by:


NO XBOX SOFTWARE PRODUCT(S) MAY BE PUBLISHED, OR DISTRIBUTED TO END USERS, EXCEPT BY A LICENSED PUBLISHER PURSUANT TO AN XBOX DEVELOPMENT KIT AND XBOX PUBLISHER LICENSE AGREEMENT EXECUTED BY MICROSOFT

http://www.xbox.com/dev/contentproviders.htm

Notice the ".....EXCEPT BY A LICENSED PUBLISHER PURSUANT TO AN XBOX DEVELOPMENT KIT AND XBOX PUBLISHER LICENSE AGREEMENT EXECUTED BY MICROSOFT..." part?

If it's not made with an MS Dev kit and MS approval it isn't legal, hence "illegal".

End of story.

The whole "anonymous hacking" membership doesn't bode well for their sincerity either.

Crating the software isn't the issue, the adoption of it is.

jschelm
09-06-2002, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Dre


Thanks bro. I'm an engineer (well.. in 4 months anyways..) not a lawyer, so that was hard to read :D

The one thing I'm unsure of its meaning and hopefully you can help is the stuff I italicized in my quote of your thread.

Yea, I am an engineer too (electrical), but I have had a class that briefly touched on this kind of stuff. The best that I can tell is that you are safe if you are working on encryption research, which I would have to guess means some type of authorized reseearch, not just if you get caught telling the judge. "Well I have a new research project dealing with encryption" As far as the reverse engineering goes, I am not sure where they draw the line there. I know that reverse engineering with the intent of learning how a competitor does stuff is common practice, but reverse engineering for the intent of copying all or part of something can get you in trouble.

Dre
09-06-2002, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Xmun


Completely nullified by:



http://www.xbox.com/dev/contentproviders.htm

Notice the ".....EXCEPT BY A LICENSED PUBLISHER PURSUANT TO AN XBOX DEVELOPMENT KIT AND XBOX PUBLISHER LICENSE AGREEMENT EXECUTED BY MICROSOFT..." part?


Yes, but it could be argued that the linux community is neither publishing nor distributing the software they create. People can download the software off a mirror or something but you'll never see this software in a store or where profit is to be made.

Xmun
09-06-2002, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Dre


Yes, but it could be argued that the linux community is neither publishing nor distributing the software they create. People can download the software off a mirror or something but you'll never see this software in a store or where profit is to be made.


D'wee?

How could they argue it isn't their intention when their specific mission statements promise exactly that?

They even refer to their "OS" as a "product"

Also how is putting it up for mass public consumption is not considered distribution in your mind?

And once again it was created for Xbox WITHOUT PERMISSION OR A DEV KIT which is clearly stated is ILLEGAL.

jschelm
09-06-2002, 02:24 PM
Dre, you do have a point, and it is something that I have never really said that I disagree with, because I am not sure. The software itself may be totally legal to write on your own (XMun has shown that it can't be distributed whether for profit or not) or to own, since MS does not specifically say that it is illegal to use, just to distribute.

The one thing the faq does not say is that the DMEA is the international agreement. It is VERY possible (read as most likely the case) that there will be laws in each country which may be more strict.

The other thing, and the original point of my argument, is that the Linux community is trying to use the word legal in the same sentance as modded XBox, which is not possible.

Xmun
09-06-2002, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by jschelm
Dre, you do have a point, and it is something that I have never really said that I disagree with, because I am not sure. The software itself may be totally legal to write on your own (XMun has shown that it can't be distributed whether for profit or not) or to own, since MS does not specifically say that it is illegal to use, just to distribute.



No it goes further than distribution.

I also pointed out that unless it's made with an Xbox Dev kit, it is not infact legal.
The only way to get the Dev Kit is with MS approval.

All software created to run on Xbox that does not infact have MS approval is......................( I won't say it for fear of being beaten for being redundantly redundant. :p )

Creation and distribution are pretty much locked down.
MS is clever like that.

netranger6
09-06-2002, 02:30 PM
Ok, let Linux run on top of MS Bios on the XBOX, so what, it will be such a small number running that way. Let the engineering and CS students lab out a box with some Linux kernel. I for one would not mess with my box because it kicks so much arse as it is, no need for a more efficient memory management system, no need for an open architecture, no need for it period....unless of course I want to play pirated games, run mod chips, and circumvent MS's copyrights.....no thanks.

GaMMa
09-06-2002, 02:35 PM
Xmun USB KB/Mouse has been a possibility for Xbox for a while.. they have done it... you just have to splice your Xbox dongle with a USB keyboard.. not too hard, only thing is Xbox has an extra wire which you don't need. If you don't believe me check the article out I linked on my first post in this thread. Also you can use the Xbox controller on the PC by doing the opposite, splicing a USB end with the Xbox controller... don't believe me on that either? Check xboxhacker.net for information on both of these things... USB KB/Mouse works...

And as for the old games crack, they're just getting used to the hardware, they'll port more complex things over later... They're doing a pretty good job IMO for programming Xbox for 3-4 months..

Xmun
09-06-2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by GaMMa
Xmun USB KB/Mouse has been a possibility for Xbox for a while.. they have done it... you just have to splice your Xbox dongle with a USB keyboard.. not too hard, only thing is Xbox has an extra wire which you don't need. If you don't believe me check the article out I linked on my first post in this thread. Also you can use the Xbox controller on the PC by doing the opposite, splicing a USB end with the Xbox controller... don't believe me on that either? Check xboxhacker.net for information on both of these things... USB KB/Mouse works...

And as for the old games crack, they're just getting used to the hardware, they'll port more complex things over later... They're doing a pretty good job IMO for programming Xbox for 3-4 months..


*Sigh*


I didn't say you couldn't do it.
I said two things.

1) Idiots are stupid.
2) Circumventing proprietary design is illegal. The proprietary designs are there for a reason: licencing.

Batman2372
09-06-2002, 04:50 PM
I have lots of money. I start a company that buys Ford Motor Company. I still have a lot of money, and I buy Exxon. Now I own both a major car manufacturer and a major gasoline distributor. I now make a new Mustang, and in the purchase agreement of buying this new Mustang, I say that you may ONLY use Exxon gas unless given express written permission by me.

Sounds ridiculous, right? Just as ridiculous as the argument that any software placed on the Xbox without consent from Microsoft is illegal.

Let's look at this EULA statement again.


NO XBOX SOFTWARE PRODUCT(S) MAY BE PUBLISHED, OR DISTRIBUTED TO END USERS, EXCEPT BY A LICENSED PUBLISHER PURSUANT TO AN XBOX DEVELOPMENT KIT AND XBOX PUBLISHER LICENSE AGREEMENT EXECUTED BY MICROSOFT

Let's look at the very BEGINNING of it. "No Xbox SOFTWARE product(s) may be published, blah, blah, blah". Well, I hate to tell you, but they're not making "Xbox Software". They are placing software that in no way contains any Xbox software code (DLL's, etc) on a piece of hardware, in this case an Xbox. As long as the software contains no part of Xbox software code, the Xbox-Linux guys are in the clear. The EULA never says anything about what is placed on the Xbox hardware, because if it did, then you would have the Ford/Exxon scenario, creating a unfair and illegal monopoly.

Sorry, Xmun, but if you're going to try to use the EULA and the law, you have to use ALL of it.

Xmun
09-06-2002, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Batman2372
Let's look at the very BEGINNING of it. "No Xbox SOFTWARE product(s) may be published, blah, blah, blah". Well, I hate to tell you, but they're not making "Xbox Software". They are placing software that in no way contains any Xbox software code (DLL's, etc) on a piece of hardware, in this case an Xbox. As long as the software contains no part of Xbox software code, the Xbox-Linux guys are in the clear. The EULA never says anything about what is placed on the Xbox hardware, because if it did, then you would have the Ford/Exxon scenario, creating a unfair and illegal monopoly.

Sorry, Xmun, but if you're going to try to use the EULA and the law, you have to use ALL of it.

Almost... but not quite.

You misread the EULA.
It makes very clear that the Dev kit and licence by MS is essential to the production equation.
Any software made for usage on the Xbox is "Xbox software" flat out.

How,you ask.
Xbox is not made with generic open market parts.
A few of the components in the Xbox are proprietary designs comissioned by MS.

To make as robust an OS as they are promising for the Xbox would infact have to make use of this specific hardware (The videocard and soundcard to be exact.).

To effectively use these proprietary devices with any form of software would require authorisation and tools designed by MS.

Undercutting them and in effect MS is illegal.
As well as any usage of the said hardware as a whole in which MS would not receive compensation/royalties from.

If they were generic mass market products you would have a point but MS has these hardware licences locked down.

Is an OS considered software: yes.
Is the OS made to harness Xbox specific hardware: According to the Linux camp yes.

Software made to run specifically on unique Xbox designed hardware is "Xbox software".

There is no way around that.


What point would there be in investin in proprietary rights if the law allowed them to be cirumvented by anybody who felt like it?

Doesn't make any sense.
Just like the Linux rubes trying word their way around what they are clearly trying to do.

TegSkywalker
09-06-2002, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by darianX
BTW, I run a Linux server and write lots of stuff in PHP, so I have no complaints about Linux in general. What I dislike is the rampant zealotry, ivory tower and anti-corporate air that surrounds a great portion of the "community". Most of those folks need to grow up and get into the real world, where things are much different than in their basements.

You couldn't have put it simpler man.

bwn82k
09-06-2002, 07:56 PM
The Xbox-Linux project has been 100% legal since Day-1. That was their main concern since they started. Read the information and documentation they have provided on the site. http://xbox-linux.sourceforge.net

GO BUCCS!!!
09-06-2002, 08:46 PM
hahaha! linux on xbox! I LOVE IT!!!!!!
PREPARE TO BEND OVER AND SAY OUCH!!!!!!! mr. BILL GATES... YOU FRECKLEFACED, REDHEADED NERDBOY!
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
:)

GaMMa
09-06-2002, 11:18 PM
Read this article.... http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/26995.html



You'll note that, presuming it didn't say that in any original Xbox EULA (we haven't got one, we don't know), this is a supplementary EULA which says modification and/or creation of derivative works from the hardware is forbidded.