Good/Bad Things About XBox [Archive]

LynxFX

11-28-2002, 12:30 PM

This thread is on the edge of closetown. I'll let it continue but if it turns into a flame thread it will be shutdown and deleted.

Good: It is heavy, it is tough, the controllers are big and fit perfectly, the controllers are durable, the controllers have a quick release cord that saved my system tons of times, it is an american console, it has a harddrive, it does native DD5.1 ingame which no other console does, it has 480p support for 99% of its games and supports true HD resolutions, it is the most powerful console ever made, it has the best online system for a console, it is broadband only, it doesn't require expensive memory cards, it mixes well with the rest of my A/V equipment, it has extra long controller cords, it has a company that has too big of an ego to just let it fail.

Bad: It doesn't do my laundry, it doesn't print money, it doesn't refill my gastank, it doesn't do dishes, it doesn't do windows, it won't change my cat litter, it doesn't speak in Haiku, it doesn't blush, it doesn't do my taxes, it doesn't shave, it hasn't won an Oscar, it can't fly a plane, it doesn't float, it started a war.

Torch

11-28-2002, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Lynxfx-XBA
Bad: It doesn't do my laundry, it doesn't print money, it doesn't refill my gastank, it doesn't do dishes, it doesn't do windows, it won't change my cat litter, it doesn't speak in Haiku, it doesn't blush, it doesn't do my taxes, it doesn't shave, it hasn't won an Oscar, it can't fly a plane, it doesn't float, it started a war.

Dude, that's exactly what I was about to say as well!! I mean, why didnt MS think of that before they made the XBox!! Jeez!! Seriously, they should consider that next time!;)

l Maximus l

11-28-2002, 12:57 PM

Good things:

1. It's black
2. It's green
3. It's durable
4. Durable controllers
5. Most powerful processing power of any console to date
6. Most powerful graphics card on any console to date
7. Built in ethernet card to play games on-line via XBox Live
8. DVD player capability surpassing any DVD player on any console
9. 8 gig hard-drive for game saves
10. 8 gig hard-drive for copying music to play back during games
11. System Link capability via CAT 5 Crossovers...
12. It lays horizontal
13. It's not blue
14. It's not purple
15. It plays regular sized discs
16. It doesn't have Grand Theft Auto Vice City on it
17. It works as a great teddy bear
18. Supports 480p, 720p, and 1080i
19. Supports 5.1 DD SS
20. Widescreen capabilities
21. XBox Live has voice communication
22. You can use the green jewel to set a beer on
23. Created by a Corporation that can buy out the entire Sony Corporation over 7 times and still have some change left over.
24. Huge 3rd party developer support
25. Will have over 250 available games by Christmas 2002.
26. And, yes, there's more... ;)

Bad things:

Precisely what Lynxfx-XBA stated :D

EHWfedPres

11-28-2002, 03:18 PM

good things - no spike haired japanese cartoon midget linear action games (commomly mistaken for rpg's...idiots)

bad things - tony hawk games suck, no Fire Pro game(s)

Cloud Strife

11-28-2002, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by Maximus-XBA
Good things:

1. It's black
2. It's green
3. It's durable
4. Durable controllers
5. Most powerful processing power of any console to date
6. Most powerful graphics card on any console to date
7. Built in ethernet card to play games on-line via XBox Live
8. DVD player capability surpassing any DVD player on any console
9. 8 gig hard-drive for game saves
10. 8 gig hard-drive for copying music to play back during games
11. System Link capability via CAT 5 Crossovers...
12. It lays horizontal
13. It's not blue
14. It's not purple
15. It plays regular sized discs
16. It doesn't have Grand Theft Auto Vice City on it
17. It works as a great teddy bear
18. Supports 480p, 720p, and 1080i
19. Supports 5.1 DD SS
20. Widescreen capabilities
21. XBox Live has voice communication
22. You can use the green jewel to set a beer on
23. Created by a Corporation that can buy out the entire Sony Corporation over 7 times and still have some change left over.
24. Huge 3rd party developer support
25. Will have over 250 available games by Christmas 2002.
26. And, yes, there's more... ;)

Bad things:

Precisely what Lynxfx-XBA stated :D I agree with all of your points. It's great the Xbox doesn't have Vice City on ths system. I thought the game wasn't very good. Green and black are the best console colors.

Another good thing is: There is no power greater than X.;)

EHWfedPres

11-28-2002, 04:09 PM

Bad Thing: No gameshark...unless i just dont know about it.

Good Thing: No Gameshark...unless i just dont know about it.

bad because it makes games too easy.

good because it makes extremely hard games more fun.

Cloud Strife

11-28-2002, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by EHWfedPres
Bad Thing: No gameshark...unless i just dont know about it.

Good Thing: No Gameshark...unless i just dont know about it.

bad because it makes games too easy.

good because it makes extremely hard games more fun. Your right about that.;) The gameshark use to ruin my Playstation games a while back.

Shadow20002

11-28-2002, 05:12 PM

Good Thing: All the great power in one piece for extreme experience gaming !!! :cool:

Bad Thing: I need more RPGs. A REAL one, with incredible single player experience ever made.

EHWfedPres

11-28-2002, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by Shadow20002
Good Thing: All the great power in one piece for extreme experience gaming !!! :cool:

Bad Thing: I need more RPGs. A REAL one, with incredible single player experience ever made.

Morrowind is the only REAL rpg on any console...

LTM360

11-28-2002, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by EHWfedPres

Morrowind is the only REAL rpg on any console...

That maybe true, but Morrowind sucks compared to Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy X.

Good - Games, Power, durability (PS2 lacks highly in), and made by a huge corporation.

Bad - No good RPG's, and Lacking in developers. (which I hope changes)

MerimacHamwich

11-28-2002, 10:09 PM

The system isn't lacking in developer support. I don't know where you got that idea from.

Nor do I understand how Morrowind sucks compared to Final Fantasy 10 or Kingdom Hearts. Morrowind has a great story line with limitless gameplay possibilites.

I say if you want to watch a movie play a Final Fantasy game.

Is it ok if I list a ton of bad things about other consoles instead of stating the obvious? Ah heck I will do both.

All prices are canadian and don't take into account current deals.

BAD for PS2:
50+$ online adapter
200$ harddrive
50$ multitap
40$ each for memory cards.
Most gamers will use more than one memory card.
No ingame Dobly Digital 5.1 support.
No HDTV support
Seperate Username required for every single online account made complete with spereate password.
Seperate account fees for every game you play online
56k support online translating into laggy play
Costs the same as an xbox with least features that can be expected in a next gen console.
200+ crappy games
Outdated technology in console
Small controllers that hurt my hands.
Only one accesory port. Translating into only being allowed ot have 1 headset at a time.
Only 1 game uses the headset
A keyboard is required to communicate in all online games except one.

Bad for Gamecube:
No dvd support
No real accesable online service
No headset period
IMO limited number of good games
No harddrive
50$ for a memory card
Online adapter is bought seperate for ___$
Small controller that hurts my hands
No hdtv support
no dobly digital 5.1 support
as far as I know no widescreen support
Mediocre graphics landing between xbox and Ps2.
As far as I know 0 accesory ports

Bad for Xbox:
Xbox LIVE requires an account to use a headset

Good for PS2:
-Has some decent games. A ratio of good to bad of about 3/100
-dvd playback with dd5.1
Good for Gamecube:
-Decent graphics
-some good games
-4 controller ports
-Price is low but technically should be lower. Either that or the -price of the xbox is insanely good.

Good for XBOX:
-Harddrive built in
-broadband adapter built in
-best system specs
-4 controller ports
-2 accesory ports on each controller tottaling 8 ports
-dobly digital 5.1 support, ingame
-widescreen support, in game
-hdtv support, in game
-all that for the low low price of 299$
-Long controller cables
-two controller sizes to choose from for personal preference (the big one is incredibly comfortable for me, doesn't give me cramps!)
-has memory cards for back up or transferring files between xboxes or for bring to your freinds etc etc etc
-XBOX LIVE
-all live games support voice chat
-broadband only online play translating into fast non-laggy games
-1 username 1 password 1 fee for all games (minus maybe some MMORPG's)
-DVD movie playback with the most features on a console(zoom etc)
-(dvd movie playback) dd5.1 support, hdtv support, widescreen support
-quick release cord
-system link capability for those who cannot afford online play

I know there are more I cannot remember right now. I will update later.

:)

Zion

11-28-2002, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by thunder
A bad thing about the x-box is there controllers they break every 5 mins there not made to go the distance also dream cast controllers always breakin too

Are you nuts or something?? WTF are you talking about??

Koopa

11-29-2002, 12:48 AM

Originally posted by MerimacHamwich
BAD for PS2:
200+ crappy games
Opinion

Small controllers that hurt my hands.
opinion...i also hate the ps2 controller, but my friends love it..go figure

Bad for Gamecube:
50$ for a memory card
actually i think its about 20, but im not sure, havent bought one in awhile

Online adapter is bought seperate for ___$
i think its 50 bucks..not sure

Small controller that hurts my hands
also opinion, i love the controller, my friends hate it...go figure again

No hdtv support
no dobly digital 5.1 support
as far as I know no widescreen support
i'm pretty sure some GC games have this stuff..but im not too sure.

Mediocre graphics landing between xbox and Ps2.
The graphics definitely aren't bad, just not HALO standards...and MP looks pretty nice, as did rogue leader

As far as I know 0 accesory ports
theres a few ports on the bottom...i think 2 or three serial ports for possible future addons (hard drives, that new GBA player thing, etc)

Bad for Xbox:
Xbox LIVE requires an account to use a headset
you forgot lack of rpgs and LOTS of overhyped games that turn into disappointments (bloodwake, circus maximus, and enclave to name a few), plus a lack of franchise characters (which isn't really that bad...im just trying to think of bad stuff to say :D)

Good for PS2:
-Has some decent games. A ratio of good to bad of about 3/100
-dvd playback with dd5.1
you forgot the fact that ps2 has the most games of any system.. a huge selection. also, ps2 has the largest installed userbase (sadly)

Good for Gamecube:
-Decent graphics
-some good games
-4 controller ports
-Price is low but technically should be lower. Either that or the -price of the xbox is insanely good.
you forgot all the major franchise characters, and metroid prime (contender for game of the year:D)

Good for XBOX:
-Harddrive built in
-broadband adapter built in
-best system specs
-4 controller ports
-2 accesory ports on each controller tottaling 8 ports
-dobly digital 5.1 support, ingame
-widescreen support, in game
-hdtv support, in game
-all that for the low low price of 299$
-Long controller cables
-two controller sizes to choose from for personal preference (the big one is incredibly comfortable for me, doesn't give me cramps!)
-has memory cards for back up or transferring files between xboxes or for bring to your freinds etc etc etc
-XBOX LIVE
-all live games support voice chat
-broadband only online play translating into fast non-laggy games
-1 username 1 password 1 fee for all games (minus maybe some MMORPG's)
-DVD movie playback with the most features on a console(zoom etc)
-(dvd movie playback) dd5.1 support, hdtv support, widescreen support
-quick release cord
-system link capability for those who cannot afford online play
you forgot uh...HALO! also forgot the Rareware purchase and the possibilties presented by content download, and uh...yeah u summed it up pretty well

Shadow Fox

12-02-2002, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by MerimacHamwich
The system isn't lacking in developer support. I don't know where you got that idea from.

Nor do I understand how Morrowind sucks compared to Final Fantasy 10 or Kingdom Hearts. Morrowind has a great story line with limitless gameplay possibilites.

I say if you want to watch a movie play a Final Fantasy game.

Is it ok if I list a ton of bad things about other consoles instead of stating the obvious? Ah heck I will do both.

All prices are canadian and don't take into account current deals.

BAD for PS2:
50+$ online adapter
200$ harddrive
50$ multitapFrom what I understand you can get a $35 multitap from retailers like Babbages and EB...

No ingame Dobly Digital 5.1 support.True, but both GCN and PS2 do support Dolby Pro Logic II in 5.1 (analog)

No HDTV supportThere are no TRUE HDTV RESOLUTIONS (pixel depth), but there are support cables, and progressive mode to support HDTV. Also some games come in widescreen mode.
Seperate Username required for every single online account made complete with spereate password.Exactly HOW is that bad?

Seperate account fees for every game you play onlineWhich in most cases of the PS2 Online launch titles, are free; compared to 50 a year for XboxLive or $9 a month for PSO on GCN.

56k support online translating into laggy playI really don't see how this is a disadvantage; in actuality, it means more peeps online to play with. XBL surely doesn't have a bandwidth minimum, and chances are you'll come across some very bad pings which will lag anyway. However, all three systems have some type of BUDDY LIST/INVITE mode- use this to lock out low bandwidth, as you'll have to on every console to combat lag. On the same note, PSO GCN has no lag whatsoever even with lots of 56kers online with you.

Costs the same as an xbox with least features that can be expected in a next gen console.PS2 has also been out for over 2 years, and has alot more games.

Bad for Gamecube:
No dvd supportNote: Panosonic Q can now be bought for $290 at most import retailers with more supported media (CD-R/RW, DVD-R/RW, SVCD, VCD, mp3, etc)

No real accesable online serviceJust plug in the adapter and ethernet capable, along with online game and sign on. Differs from game to game until Nintendo annonces one.

IMO limited number of good gamesOpinion. If any good games are multi, they are also on GameCube.

50$ for a memory cardNOT true; memory card 51's retail for 14.99; memory card 251's retail for 19.99. In comparison, average GCN games only require 3 blocks or less of memory as opposed to Xbox and PS2.

Online adapter is bought seperate for ___$Both the 56k and broadband adapters are 39.99 separately.

Small controller that hurts my handsOpinion.

No hdtv supportSee PS2. Supports progressive scan at 480p; widescreen mode and HDTV composite cables.

no dobly digital 5.1 supportAgain, see PS2. All Nintendo published games in the future will support Dolby Pro Logic II in 5.1

as far as I know no widescreen supportSee above. Widescreen is supported in 16:9 ratio.

Mediocre graphics landing between xbox and Ps2.Opinion. For sustained performance, both GCN and Xbox have the same high poly rate (15mps) in a game as verified by developers. GCN's is done with 8 texture layers, and Xbox with 4.

As far as I know 0 accesory ports
See koopa's response. High-speed port, and two expanson bays.

-Official Ninja of XboxAddict

LynxFX

12-02-2002, 12:21 PM

Some of you are getting your HD specs and digital sound mixed up so I'll see if I can clear up some things.

Xbox:
* The Only console to offer true HD resolutions ingame. 720p and 1080i being true HD resolutions. Xbox has games out in both resolutions now.

480p support in ALL games with the exception of 3 titles which are poorly done ports. *cough* EA *cough*

Widescreen support ingame (game specific.) ~41 games.

Only console with Dolby Digital 5.1 sound in realtime, ingame, all games. There are a few cases with the center channel not being encoded, but the sound is still digital.

GameCube:
*No HD support. 720p and 1080i.

480p support is game specific. ~21 games support this.

Widescreen support ingame (game specific.) ~9 games.

No Dolby Digital sound. (~7 games do Dolby Pro Logic II. This is not Digital sound and IMO not even comparible.)

Playstation 2:
*No HD support. 720p and 1080i.

480p support is game specific. ~4 games support this.

Widescreen support ingame (game specific.) ~21 games support this.

No Dolby Digital sound ingame. Only cinematics. 2 games do DTS ingame. Support for Pro Logic II is available but game specific. ~3 games do any kind of 5.1 sound.

Just for fun,
Dreamcast:

Nearly all of the Dreamcast games support 480p, with quite a few in widescreen.

No digital surround sound.

* HD resolutions only consist of 720p and 1080i. 480p is not and HD resolution nor is being able to connect using component video cables.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Side note:
56k is a huge disadvantage. With a 56k connection you are pretty much guaranteed lag once you add in voice communication and games with at least 5 on 5. With a broadband connection, yes there is a chance of lag and I have seen it even on Live, but the cases are far and few inbetween. Quality over quantity, and as we are seeing Live is building in quantity as well.

Shadow Fox

12-02-2002, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Lynxfx-XBA
Some of you are getting your HD specs and digital sound mixed up so I'll see if I can clear up some things.

Xbox:
* The Only console to offer true HD resolutions ingame. 720p and 1080i being true HD resolutions. Xbox has games out in both resolutions now.

480p support in ALL games with the exception of 3 titles which are poorly done ports. *cough* EA *cough*

Widescreen support ingame (game specific.) ~41 games.

Only console with Dolby Digital 5.1 sound in realtime, ingame, all games. There are a few cases with the center channel not being encoded, but the sound is still digital.

GameCube:
*No HD support. 720p and 1080i.

480p support is game specific. ~21 games support this.

Widescreen support ingame (game specific.) ~9 games.

No Dolby Digital sound. (~7 games do Dolby Pro Logic II. This is not Digital sound and IMO not even comparible.)

Playstation 2:
*No HD support. 720p and 1080i.

480p support is game specific. ~4 games support this.

Widescreen support ingame (game specific.) ~21 games support this.

No Dolby Digital sound ingame. Only cinematics. 2 games do DTS ingame. Support for Pro Logic II is available but game specific. ~3 games do any kind of 5.1 sound.

Just for fun,
Dreamcast:

Nearly all of the Dreamcast games support 480p, with quite a few in widescreen.

No digital surround sound.

* HD resolutions only consist of 720p and 1080i. 480p is not and HD resolution nor is being able to connect using component video cables.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Side note:
56k is a huge disadvantage. With a 56k connection you are pretty much guaranteed lag once you add in voice communication and games with at least 5 on 5. With a broadband connection, yes there is a chance of lag and I have seen it even on Live, but the cases are far and few inbetween. Quality over quantity, and as we are seeing Live is building in quantity as well. Who was mixing up HDTV resolutions?

If you read my post, I even said that PS2/GCN don't support true HDTV resolutions.

And you must agree that there aren't that many progressive projection televisions available (as they were phased out with the advent of HDTV). Most widescreen TV's are either projection (analog) or HD (progressive), so that's where everyone gets "HDTV support" from, and that's why composite cables even exist for the other two consoles.

And BTW, if you are able to tell the difference between the analog 6 channels in Eternal Darkness and the digital 6 in Halo, the decibel level is so high then it won't even matter.

-Official Ninja of XboxAddict

Highlite23

12-02-2002, 01:57 PM

The best thing about XBOX.............I own one.

The worst thing................Not enough time in the day.

Ethereal S. D.

12-02-2002, 02:09 PM

Mein Gott!
Do you all have to make each page a mile long with copy-pasting?
Anyway here goes...

I laughed my head off at this one:

Bad: It doesn't do my laundry, it doesn't print money, it doesn't refill my gastank, it doesn't do dishes, it doesn't do windows, it won't change my cat litter, it doesn't speak in Haiku, it doesn't blush, it doesn't do my taxes, it doesn't shave, it hasn't won an Oscar, it can't fly a plane, it doesn't float, it started a war.

Although i am shure that it could fly a plane, do your taxes and use windows as an opperating system (Or do you mean CLEANING windows?)

Good: Best ensemble of technology Microsoft has to offer!
Bad: We don't want to give Bill Gates anymore money but we still do anyway.

(Last i checked, Microsoft can buy Sony Corp. 22 times and still have change left);)

MerimacHamwich

12-02-2002, 02:16 PM

Dude, you have no idea what you are talking about. Apparently you contradict yourself ALOT.

Did you even read my post?

All prices are canadian and don't take into account current deals.

Here is where you got mixed up when it came to HDTV and DD as well as other things.

True, but both GCN and PS2 do support Dolby Pro Logic II in 5.1 (analog)
That is no where near comparable to Dolby Digital 5.1
Trust me, if you haven't heard it, you may not know but there is a huge difference.

There are no TRUE HDTV RESOLUTIONS (pixel depth), but there are support cables, and progressive mode to support HDTV. Also some games come in widescreen mode.
So how does this work? They do not support HDTV resolutions right? So how does the support cables and progressive mode change anything? They don't, it is that simple. BTW 480p is edtv.

Exactly HOW is that bad?
If you don't mind remembering tons of different passwords and gamertags that is fine with you. However, I would find it a huge hassle.

PS2 has also been out for over 2 years, and has alot more games.
That doesn't change my argument. It is still outdated technology costing the same as new and better technology. Either the PS2 has an incredibly high pricetag or the xbox has an incredibly low price tag. Either way you look at it the xbox price is still great.

Opinion. If any good games are multi, they are also on GameCube.
Notice how I said In My Opinion? Oh yeah, that is right, you didn't read my post.

See PS2. Supports progressive scan at 480p; widescreen mode and HDTV composite cables

HDTV composite cables cannot turn a signal into an HDTV signal. If the console doesn't support it, it won't happen.

Again, see PS2. All Nintendo published games in the future will support Dolby Pro Logic II in 5.1
That still isn't Dolby Digital 5.1 is it? DD5.1 is a higher quality product than Pro Logic. Trust me, I have heard both countless times.

Opinion. For sustained performance, both GCN and Xbox have the same high poly rate (15mps) in a game as verified by developers. GCN's is done with 8 texture layers, and Xbox with 4.
Has any Gamecube game ever came close to looking as good as Transworld Snowboarding? I know about the texture layers and all that. There is also the fact that Xbox uses both bump mapping pixel shading and vertex shaders. I think I might have mixed some stuff up there. My point is that regardless of the fact that Gamecube has more texture layers it cannot do some of the effects that the xbox can. Also, to date, I have never seen a gamecube game look better than the best looking xbox game out at that time. I think everyone would agree.

And BTW, if you are able to tell the difference between the analog 6 channels in Eternal Darkness and the digital 6 in Halo, the decibel level is so high then it won't even matter.
Yes it will. Volume level doesn't make a signal more clear or digital for that matter. You can also turn up the volume on your DD5.1 set up. No mater what sound level the system is at DD5.1 will always sound better.

I could have picked apart even more of your post but I figure what I said would clear everything up if you go back and read your post and mine.

Shadow Fox

12-02-2002, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by MerimacHamwich
Dude, you have no idea what you are talking about. Apparently you contradict yourself ALOT.

Did you even read my post?Sorry, I apologize for misreading your IMO's...

Now, on to this mixup...
Here is where you got mixed up when it came to HDTV and DD as well as other things.

That is no where near comparable to Dolby Digital 5.1
Trust me, if you haven't heard it, you may not know but there is a huge difference.I have a Dolby Digital setup. If you run the GCN/PS2 through on DPLII games and the reciever detects it, the bass is no less amplified, and the volume is no softer. I'm just pointing out that the average ear will not be able to hear the "crisper" sound of dolby digital setups.

Not that it matters, since it's all preference, and most gamers barely even have a rig like this to be able to tell that DPLII bass carries to the left a tad more whereas everything is centered perfectly in DD. Point is, they are both 5.1, and both produce great theater surround sound.
So how does this work? They do not support HDTV resolutions right? So how does the support cables and progressive mode change anything? They don't, it is that simple. BTW 480p is edtv.No one said that the video signal is changed at all. What I was saying (if you read my post to Lynxfx) is that PROGRESSIVE SCAN is a rare option on analog widescreen (and tubular screen) televisions. It is there in all HDTV's, thus the term progressive scan as "HDTV support". No one said anything about the resolution being true, as I stated in my first post. Progressive scanlines in 480p is supporting the technology in HDTV's, which is why many sites/mags clarify this as HDTV support.

Now please stop with the resolution circle...

If you don't mind remembering tons of different passwords and gamertags that is fine with you. However, I would find it a huge hassle.Apparantly the vast majority of the online PC gaming world doesn't see it as a problem...

And wouldn't using the same username/pass on all accounts combat this issue?
That doesn't change my argument. It is still outdated technology costing the same as new and better technology. Either the PS2 has an incredibly high pricetag or the xbox has an incredibly low price tag. Either way you look at it the xbox price is still great.To be fair, neither the Xbox nor the GameCube are recent technology in any right; maybe the individual CPU/GPU's, but not the entire package.
HDTV composite cables cannot turn a signal into an HDTV signal. If the console doesn't support it, it won't happen.As I said before, this isn't about the resolution of the image, but progressive scan which supports HDTV. Are you saying the GameCube and PS2 DO NOT offer progressive scan in games?
That still isn't Dolby Digital 5.1 is it? DD5.1 is a higher quality product than Pro Logic. Trust me, I have heard both countless times.Read above responses. YOU make think it's a huge difference, but not to the vast majority of casual gamers (who just happen to be responsible for ALOT of hardware/software sales). Are you saying that any person looking for a gaming system can tell the difference instantly, or care?
Has any Gamecube game ever came close to looking as good as Transworld Snowboarding? I know about the texture layers and all that. There is also the fact that Xbox uses both bump mapping pixel shading and vertex shaders. I think I might have mixed some stuff up there. My point is that regardless of the fact that Gamecube has more texture layers it cannot do some of the effects that the xbox can. Also, to date, I have never seen a gamecube game look better than the best looking xbox game out at that time. I think everyone would agree.Here you messed up talking about GPU performance. Do you know what vertex shaders are for? It's HOW THE XBOX DOES BUMPMAPPING. But as you are quite able to tell (in say Rogue Leader or StarFox Adventures) bumpmapping is not only possible on other systems, it's quite rampant. Hell, the DC had bumpmapping in hardware. If you are talking about standard onboard effects, the only difference between Xbox and GameCube is that Xbox is the only console with enviromental bumpmapping and vertex shaders onboard. GameCube is able to do the same effect in its ISA, but it's part of a toolkit and not hardware-triggered. Both have bumpmapping, hidden surface removal, trilinear filtering and mip mapping, ST3C texture compression at a 6:1 ratio, and many of the minor things PS2 has (particle/realtime lighting, etc).

One reason some games look alot more "crisp" on Xbox is heavy use of a better anti-aliasing scheme, but so far in multi-console games, the picture is often TOO sharp, IMO. Nonetheless, GCN/Xbox's hardware are capable of producing the same results onscreen.

And YES, IMO, Rallisport looks better than Transworld Snowboarding on Xbox, which is beat out by Rogue Leader, Metroid Prime, StarFox Adventures, and Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell.

As far as the PS2 is concerned, have you seen the snow in VF4?

-Official Ninja of XboxAddict

LynxFX

12-03-2002, 12:30 AM

I don't have alot of time so I'll keep this short.

Shadow Fox, I wasn't aiming my post directly at you but rather in general. Now I am aiming this directly at you.

Progressive scanlines in 480p is supporting the technology in HDTV's, which is why many sites/mags clarify this as HDTV support.

And that completely wrong!! 480p is NOT HD or HDTV support. As MerimacHamwich pointed out that is EDTV. It has zero to do with HDTV besides the fact that HDTV's support it. It all has to do with the backwards compatibility clause by the FCC.

PROGRESSIVE SCAN is a rare option on analog widescreen (and tubular screen) televisions.
What the hell are you talking about? For one thing, who even sells analog widescreen tvs? They are all digital now. Those btw, ALL do progressive scan which is a HUGE graphical improvement over interlaced gaming and television when you are talking about a resolution of 480 lines. Also if you haven't noticed, this is actually the future of television, not some niche market as you tend to believe.

And you must agree that there aren't that many progressive projection televisions available (as they were phased out with the advent of HDTV).
This just blows my mind. Phased out? Aren't that many progressive projection televisions? Umm like I said before, how about all of them except for the 1 or 2 analog(obsolete) projection sets. HDTV brought progressive scan to the mass market, not phased it out. It is true that most cheap rear projection tv's don't do 720p but they do do 480p as well as 1080i of course. Both resolutions only capable on the Xbox I might add...again.

There is also a big difference between DPLII and DD5.1. It has nothing to do with sound levels, but rather a discrete channel rather than a hardware 'guestimate' of where the sound should be coming from. If you can't tell the difference, then you must have a bad system, poorly or non-calibrated, or a dead ear. Again, just because you can't hear it, doesn't mean others won't.

If you still don't get it, reread my previous post as it explains it as clearly as it can be explained. It can't get more black and white than that.

Shadow Fox

12-03-2002, 08:06 AM

Oh boy...are you missing the point too? Well let me ask a few questionis then...
Originally posted by Lynxfx-XBA
And that completely wrong!! 480p is NOT HD or HDTV support. As MerimacHamwich pointed out that is EDTV. It has zero to do with HDTV besides the fact that HDTV's support it. It all has to do with the backwards compatibility clause by the FCC.And WHO has an EDTV? Listen to what you just said:
"It has zero to do with HDTV besides the fact that HDTV's support it.Now maybe you missed my point (again), but I said NOTHING about resolutions being true, only an ASPECT of scanlines that is supported by HDTV and not old analog sets. Understand now?
What the hell are you talking about? For one thing, who even sells analog widescreen tvs? They are all digital now. Those btw, ALL do progressive scan which is a HUGE graphical improvement over interlaced gaming and television when you are talking about a resolution of 480 lines. Also if you haven't noticed, this is actually the future of television, not some niche market as you tend to believe.Analog sets are the future of television? Hmm...becuase THAT'S what I WAS TALKING about, not widescreen HDTV sets. You yourself agreed with my orginal statement of by saying that no one even sells the sets anymore. Have you even read my post clearly?

There are very few widescreens that support 480p other than HDTV widescreen units. This is true, is it not?

You are so busy trying to prove me wrong that you agreed by accident...or did you?
This just blows my mind. Phased out? Aren't that many progressive projection televisions? Umm like I said before, how about all of them except for the 1 or 2 analog(obsolete) projection sets. HDTV brought progressive scan to the mass market, not phased it out. It is true that most cheap rear projection tv's don't do 720p but they do do 480p as well as 1080i of course. Both resolutions only capable on the Xbox I might add...again.Read above, and READ YOUR OWN RESPONSE HERE. HDTV broght progressive scan to the market you say. GCN/PS2 support progressive scan. Are you saying these systems don't support that market through progressive scan? Are you also saying that 16:9 ratio widescreen features do not accomodate rear-projection HDTV?

This is a little more than xbox.com can tell you, but 1080i isn't good at all. In fact, the only game capable of running it (Dragon's Lair 3D) runs at a much choppier framerate (and it should, since interlaced images go no higher than 30fps anyways) and really dulls in comparison to 480p and 720p.
There is also a big difference between DPLII and DD5.1. It has nothing to do with sound levels, but rather a discrete channel rather than a hardware 'guestimate' of where the sound should be coming from. If you can't tell the difference, then you must have a bad system, poorly or non-calibrated, or a dead ear. Again, just because you can't hear it, doesn't mean others won't.I said it once, and I'll say it again, OPINION. I told you I can hear the difference, but I made it a point that every casual gamer (who buy the majority of consoles/games today) may not know the difference, which you cannot prove wrong.
If you still don't get it, reread my previous post as it explains it as clearly as it can be explained. It can't get more black and white than that. Lynxfx, it appears that history is repeating itself once again before you were a mod. Read MY POST clearly, and you will clearly see your reading errors. You are agreeing with me, yet don't know it...;)

-Official Ninja of XboxAddict

MerimacHamwich

12-03-2002, 12:13 PM

Dude, I think we are both having a hard time understanding your posts then. I get the same thing out of them as LynxFX. I just have a few little things to say.

And WHO has an EDTV? Listen to what you just said:
I believe there is no such thing as an EDTV. You can get an Enhanced Definition Television picture if your TV uses, Composite or S-Video cables. I think.

This is a little more than xbox.com can tell you, but 1080i isn't good at all. In fact, the only game capable of running it (Dragon's Lair 3D) runs at a much choppier framerate (and it should, since interlaced images go no higher than 30fps anyways) and really dulls in comparison to 480p and 720p.

The resolution the video game is presented in on a console won't change the framerate of the game. It isn't like computers. If your xbox ran Dragons Lair 3d choppily then it must have something to do with the programming of the game or your xbox.

I said it once, and I'll say it again, OPINION. I told you I can hear the difference, but I made it a point that every casual gamer (who buy the majority of consoles/games today) may not know the difference, which you cannot prove wrong.

You cannot prove that right either. I believe everyone is able to hear the difference between Dolby Digital 5.1 and Dolby Pro Logic. Wanna know why? Becuase a Dolby Digital 5.1 signal is first off, digital, and secondly because it is seperated into 6 channels in the first place. The sound has been optimized for dd5.1 with the sounds already being seperated into the 6 seperate channels. With Dolby Pro Logic 2 there is a different story. It takes signals that haven't been seperated into 6 channels and tries to do it itself. Thus you do not have true 5.1 Infact, I don't believe it uses the back surround speakers independently. From what I have experienced it only uses both speakers to project one sound. Never does it use one of thosespeakers independently. Thus it should be a 4.1 signal. Heck I don't think it even uses the center channel. Therfor it is now a 3.1 channel. That is ocourse if it uses the subwoofer. So yes, there will be a clear difference to any casual gamer, well there should be. I think I would be able to hear the difference between an optimized 6 channel sound and a modified 2 channel sound to a 3.1 channel sound. Don't you?
:)

Shadow Fox

12-03-2002, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by MerimacHamwich
Dude, I think we are both having a hard time understanding your posts then. I get the same thing out of them as LynxFX.Just as I apologized for before; read carefully and think before you post.
I believe there is no such thing as an EDTV. You can get an Enhanced Definition Television picture if your TV uses, Composite or S-Video cables. I think.Actually, there are a few flat screen TV's and LCD monitors that support EDTV made by viewsonic and toshiba. However, these models have been updated and also support HDTV signals now as well.
The resolution the video game is presented in on a console won't change the framerate of the game. It isn't like computers. If your xbox ran Dragons Lair 3d choppily then it must have something to do with the programming of the game or your xbox.No, it won't. Have any idea why? It's because NO IMAGE, MOVIE, OR GAME can be displayed past 30fps in the 1080i format, period. Even in 1080p the framerate dips to 24fps. This is not because of the Xbox, or the software. It's the HDTV signal itself.

You can learn a little about that here (http://www.sampoamericas.com/support/hdtvFAQ.html). There's even a chart that shows you the performance of each SDTV, EDTV, and HDTV format standard.
You cannot prove that right either. I believe everyone is able to hear the difference between Dolby Digital 5.1 and Dolby Pro Logic. Wanna know why? Becuase a Dolby Digital 5.1 signal is first off, digital, and secondly because it is seperated into 6 channels in the first place. The sound has been optimized for dd5.1 with the sounds already being seperated into the 6 seperate channels. With Dolby Pro Logic 2 there is a different story. It takes signals that haven't been seperated into 6 channels and tries to do it itself. Thus you do not have true 5.1 Infact, I don't believe it uses the back surround speakers independently. From what I have experienced it only uses both speakers to project one sound. Never does it use one of thosespeakers independently. Thus it should be a 4.1 signal. Heck I don't think it even uses the center channel. Therfor it is now a 3.1 channel. That is ocourse if it uses the subwoofer. So yes, there will be a clear difference to any casual gamer, well there should be. I think I would be able to hear the difference between an optimized 6 channel sound and a modified 2 channel sound to a 3.1 channel sound. Don't you?
:) I can tell you there is active separation in Metroid Prime, Eternal Darkness, and StarWars Rogue Leader: Rogue Squadron II in six separate channels through musyx's ingenious software. There are two discrete bass channels, and sound circulates around simulataneously. In those games I am for SURE that no average ear can tell the difference. I've had peeps come over and could never tell any difference between Eternal Darkness or Halo. As for PS2's games, most are multiplatform and are hardly close to something that first-party development can do.

But you are right; no one knows what every casual gamer may or may not hear. I wonder what percentage of "gamers" today have 5.1 systems...

-Official Ninja of XboxAddict

MerimacHamwich

12-03-2002, 04:17 PM

I hate it when people get all huffy and puffy about framerates being around 25-30 fps. The average tv signal is 27 fps. The human eye cannot tell above 30. So I really don't see the big deal if it runs any higher than 30. Lower than 20 is bad and that is when i would get worried.

thunder

12-03-2002, 07:18 PM

4. Durable controllers

you people are a bunch of ****ing knobs if you think the controllers are durable the controllers are over sized pieces of crap and if you wanna get upset and have a go at someone cause they think that then GET A LIFE

Shadow Fox

12-03-2002, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by MerimacHamwich
I hate it when people get all huffy and puffy about framerates being around 25-30 fps. The average tv signal is 27 fps. The human eye cannot tell above 30. So I really don't see the big deal if it runs any higher than 30. Lower than 20 is bad and that is when i would get worried. The point is, any interlaced framerate is bad. You get half the usual animation you would get in progressive with screen "flickers".

As for progressive resolutions higher than 720p, the Xbox hardware will have a problem with this (as it wasn't designed to pump more than 30fps at higher res), and will choke if trying to achieve anything higher in framerate (why, I dunno; you wouldn't be able to tell anyway at an interlaced 1080 res).

And regardless of the eye being able to tell apart 30fps from 60, the end result is a much more smoother movement on the screen (unless, that is, you are viewing your TV from like 40 feet away)...

As I said before, GCN and PS2 support HDTV/EDTV/whatever's capable with progressive scan and widescreen 16:9 ratio options at a 480p resolution.

-Official Ninja of XboxAddict

MerimacHamwich

12-03-2002, 07:35 PM

Why are you still saying they support HDTV? They don't. They might support edtv. Ofcourse they can play on an hdtv, but so can any console, dvd player, vcr, laser disc player and or tv signal. Saying it supports HDTV is saying that is can do 720p and 1080i resolutions. Which is wrong.

Shadow Fox

12-03-2002, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by MerimacHamwich
Why are you still saying they support HDTV? They don't. They might support edtv. Ofcourse they can play on an hdtv, but so can any console, dvd player, vcr, laser disc player and or tv signal. Saying it supports HDTV is saying that is can do 720p and 1080i resolutions. Which is wrong. Question: If all EDTV standards are now incorporated into HDTV sets, and AREN'T part of SDTV, then what does it support, then?

Keep in mind of what Lynxfx mentioned first (which is true)- HDTV widescreens have replaced analog ones.

With that said, WHAT EXACTLY is widescreen 16:9 support going to do for an analog widescreen in progressive scan?

Obviously nothing, and these options are for HDTV widescreens ONLY- hence the term. From what I understand (unless you can find some archaic listing of some for sale), there are no widescreen EDTV sets, only recievers, which are also phased by newer HDTV sets.

Does an HDTV set display 480p resolution when called upon? Yes it does.

As I've been restating over and over, if you have an HDTV, GameCube/Playstation 2 can support those signals, just not in every resolution.

-Official Ninja of XboxAddict

MerimacHamwich

12-03-2002, 09:02 PM

EXACTLY! That still does not mean that the gamecube and PS2 support a HDTV resolution. They cannot put out a 720p or 1080i signal. You can still play on one of those tv's if you want, it doesn't make a difference. 480p, is delivered by s-video or composite cables. You can get EDTV picture on any tv with a s-video or composite cable hook up. You can also get an edtv picture on a HDTV if you want. EDTV being a resolution of 480p. That doesn't mean it supports HDTV.
Ugh. I don't even know if we are arguing about the same thing anymore.

Shadow Fox

12-03-2002, 09:22 PM

If you read my original post, though; no one ever said GCN nor PS2 support HDTV RESOLUTIONS, only the SIGNAL, progressive scan, and widescreen options that are only available on widescreen HDTV's. Get my point now?

Good; cuz it's what I've been saying all along.

-Official Ninja of XboxAddict

MerimacHamwich

12-03-2002, 09:43 PM

Progressive scan isn't only available on widescreen hdtv's. 480p, edtv, can be used on any tv with s-video or composite cable inputs. The p in 480p stands for progressive scan. In my eyes if you are saying that it supports the signal then you are reffering to the HDTV resolutions. Not the option of having a progressive scan image or a widescreen image.

Liquid Gears

12-03-2002, 10:06 PM

The good thing about XBOX: It can support a ton of memory and excellent grafics

The Bad thing about XBOX: Doesn't own Capcom :(

Shadow Fox

12-04-2002, 01:35 AM

Originally posted by MerimacHamwich
Progressive scan isn't only available on widescreen hdtv's.But 16:9 ratio is, which is my point- read it right.
480p, edtv, can be used on any tv with s-video or composite cable inputs. The p in 480p stands for progressive scan.Yes, and progressive scan is part of EDTV/HDTV, not SDTV. A standard analog TV cannot reproduce a 480 progressive image; only digital ones can.
In my eyes if you are saying that it supports the signal then you are reffering to the HDTV resolutions.Even if I just sat here and TOLD you I wasn't talking about resolutions? The digital signal does NOT refer to the resolution, as it carries more than just per-pixel position. Widescreen mode is NOT a resolution, and is supported in 480p on widescreen HDTV's ONLY.

-Official Ninja of XboxAddict

Koopa

12-04-2002, 11:47 PM

ill just skip the technical mumbo-jumbo...

Apparantly the vast majority of the online PC gaming world doesn't see it as a problem...

And wouldn't using the same username/pass on all accounts combat this issue?

its not allways possible...i usually try to get the name koopa, but sometimes certain sites need more or less letters for my username or password, and in many instances its already taken..so sometimes i'm koopa101, or supakoopa, or koopa2k, or koopapoopa, or whatever isnt taken.

and while im on the subject, i bought tribes 2 awhile back and havent played it for a long time, then i decide to play it one day and, lo and behold, my normal username/pass wont work. so yeah..

and then for example if your name is like...superhypermegarobotmech or whatever, and you want to play a fantasy game....superhypermegarobotmech isn't exactly the best name for a medieval sword-wielding adventurer..on XBL u get one account and can make all sorts of names for individual games

having multiple username/pass accounts isn't a disadvantage, but it sure as hell isn't an advantage.

TheCovenant

12-05-2002, 12:10 AM

gamertags are just there to help track people down not to have in game. An example is unreal

unreal lets you have any character on your profile. But theres games like mechassault and ghostrecon.

its up to the game and im sure in the future games will aquire more and more abilities to change your name.

it shouldnt even be a matter

For proving that the xbox online network is great, theres no power greater than X

Plewis

12-05-2002, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by Shadow Fox
If you read my original post, though; no one ever said GCN nor PS2 support HDTV RESOLUTIONS, only the SIGNAL, progressive scan, and widescreen options that are only available on widescreen HDTV's. Get my point now?

Good; cuz it's what I've been saying all along.

-Official Ninja of XboxAddict

uggghhh, you've obviously confused many people by this all to argue the STUPIDEST point. Mermiac was trying to argue something real and you were just throwing this at him that appears to be a different argument. Just like an immature little kid using double negatives to confuse people. It was needless and immature. Of course it suports the signal. That's no big deal AT ALL. I know I wasted a good 2 or 3 pages of reading that could have been spared if you didn't act so immature.

shnike123

12-06-2002, 10:27 AM

One good thing about Xbox is the killer graphics. One bad thing is not as many titles as ps2.

Shadow Fox

12-06-2002, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by Plewis

uggghhh, you've obviously confused many people by this all to argue the STUPIDEST point. Mermiac was trying to argue something real and you were just throwing this at him that appears to be a different argument. Just like an immature little kid using double negatives to confuse people. It was needless and immature. Of course it suports the signal. That's no big deal AT ALL. I know I wasted a good 2 or 3 pages of reading that could have been spared if you didn't act so immature. Are you referring to me being "immature" (since you quoted me)?

How so? By stating IN MY VERY FIRST POST HERE what I stated in my last post?
Originally posted by SF in the damn beginning

"There are no TRUE HDTV RESOLUTIONS (pixel depth), but there are support cables, and progressive mode to support HDTV. Also some games come in widescreen mode."I'm more than too clear as to stating what I mean on this. I even pointed out that there is widescreen mode support for the two systems, which Mermiac stated as nonexistant...:rolleyes:

To simplify even more I'll lay it out like this:

HDTV widescreen: supported by Panasonic Q/GCN/Xbox/PS2 in 16:9 in 480p

HDTV resolution: supported by Xbox/Panasonic Q in 720p/1080i

EDTV widescreen: nonexistant models

EDTV: supported by GCN/Xbox/Panasonic Q/PS2 in 480p

SDTV: supported by GCN/Xbox/Panasonic Q/PS2 in 480i

SDTV widescreen: supported by GCN/Xbox/Panasonic Q/PS2 in 480i

NOTE: Panasonic Q only supports HDTV resolutions and Dolby Digital 5.1 in movie playback ONLY.

Does this make more sense? Mermiac/Lynxfx simply got confused on what I was saying here, and after reading over this thread again, I can see how and where...:(

But if I'm "immature" for pointing that out from the get-go, then so be it...:rolleyes:

Anyways, back to topic:

Good for Xbox:

-THE BEST onboard console antialiasing unit

Bad for Xbox:

-low realworld fillrate (200-700 Mpixels according to developers)

-Official Ninja of XboxAddict

LynxFX

12-06-2002, 12:22 PM

I was trying to stay out of this because I could tell that we all were confused on what we were even arguing about. ;)

The following though I believe I know what you are talking about and this is where we are confusing ourselves and also points out something that really ticks me off about current Xbox titles and their packaging.

Originally posted by Shadow Fox
HDTV widescreen: supported by Panasonic Q/GCN/Xbox/PS2 in 16:9 in 480p

HDTV resolution: supported by Xbox/Panasonic Q in 720p/1080i

EDTV widescreen: nonexistant models

EDTV: supported by GCN/Xbox/Panasonic Q/PS2 in 480p

SDTV: supported by GCN/Xbox/Panasonic Q/PS2 in 480i

SDTV widescreen: supported by GCN/Xbox/Panasonic Q/PS2 in 480i

I'm just going to go by your labels.

HDTV widescreen = 720p or 1080i with a 16x9 aspect ratio. Xbox is the only console to support this. In yours you state that 480p and 16x9 is HDTV widescreen when it is not. That is EDTV. No there aren't televisions made just for that, but yes that is what the classification of EDTV is.

EDTV widescreen = 480p with a 16x9 aspect ratio. Yes all the current consoles support this. PS2 has 3 or so titles total and the gamecube has a few more than that. Xbox has the most by a large factor.

EDTV resolution = 480p with a 4x3 or 16x9 AR. The xbox supports this with all games. Even the 4 that don't natively actually do when the bug is fixed via a mod chip. (poor game design and quality control). The GC and PS2 have a minimal library of games that support any progressivescan display.

All of this was explained in my first post. Infact I used exact numbers for each console.

I think where we are getting confused, and rightfully so since even MS is getting it wrong again is what HDTV can be classified as. Being 480p and 16x9 is not HDTV. The first HD game for a console came when Street Hoops hit the shelves for the Xbox. It was the first and only game that ran in a FCC classified HD resolution. 720p at 16x9. (BTW, all HDTV is 16x9. 4x3 isn't part of the spec.)

Right now, the GC and PS2 do not have HDTV capable games. I think that is basically what all of these pages of posts get down to.

**I'm not familiar with the Panasonic Q at all so can't comment on that.

Shadow Fox

12-06-2002, 02:06 PM

OK, finally we can clear this up; since you've stated exactly where you stand on the mishap here...Thank you, Lynxfx.;)
Originally posted by Lynxfx-XBA
I was trying to stay out of this because I could tell that we all were confused on what we were even arguing about. ;)

The following though I believe I know what you are talking about and this is where we are confusing ourselves and also points out something that really ticks me off about current Xbox titles and their packaging.

I'm just going to go by your labels.

HDTV widescreen = 720p or 1080i with a 16x9 aspect ratio. Xbox is the only console to support this. In yours you state that 480p and 16x9 is HDTV widescreen when it is not. That is EDTV. No there aren't televisions made just for that, but yes that is what the classification of EDTV is.

EDTV widescreen = 480p with a 16x9 aspect ratio. Yes all the current consoles support this. PS2 has 3 or so titles total and the gamecube has a few more than that. Xbox has the most by a large factor.

EDTV resolution = 480p with a 4x3 or 16x9 AR. The xbox supports this with all games. Even the 4 that don't natively actually do when the bug is fixed via a mod chip. (poor game design and quality control). The GC and PS2 have a minimal library of games that support any progressivescan display.

All of this was explained in my first post. Infact I used exact numbers for each console.Exactly. I'm guessing you and Mermiac thought I was saying that 480p IS HDTV; which I agree on- it isn't. And you got the point that there are no widescreen EDTV sets, being reason why I said 16:9 on GCN/PS2 is widescreen (NOT monitor size) HDTV support.

I think you know what I was saying on that, for the most part. (And thanx for pointing out the HDTV max res for Xbox/Panasonic Q; forgot about those ;) )...
I think where we are getting confused, and rightfully so since even MS is getting it wrong again is what HDTV can be classified as. Being 480p and 16x9 is not HDTV. The first HD game for a console came when Street Hoops hit the shelves for the Xbox. It was the first and only game that ran in a FCC classified HD resolution. 720p at 16x9. (BTW, all HDTV is 16x9. 4x3 isn't part of the spec.)Nah, I always knew 720p was the minimum for HDTV (actually 540p or something to that effect by research), just what aspect of widescreen supports to AVAILABLE HD hardware. Unless there's a widescreen EDTV set out there, technically GCN/PS2 support HDTV thru 16:9 ratio, since only HDTV widescreen sets are the only hardware available to display it...I think you see that part now too though...
Right now, the GC and PS2 do not have HDTV capable games. I think that is basically what all of these pages of posts get down to.Exactly. As a matter of fact, GCN/PS2 never will have HDTV-capable games as far as display is concerned; since the consoles cannot produce 720p. Finally we see eye-to-eye.
**I'm not familiar with the Panasonic Q at all so can't comment on that. Nothing much there anyways, as the Q only supports HDTV resolutions in SVCD/VCD/DVD playback only.

At least we are on the same level now...:)

-Official Ninja of XboxAddict