PDA

View Full Version : Interview With MIT Student Who Cracked The Xbox...



Xaminor
12-06-2002, 01:06 PM
Ofcourse I got this from that Nintendo fanboy site at Nightly and ofcourse it is the hot topic there, lol.


Source: soundcicuit.com


I recently had the chance to interview the famous Xbox hacker from MIT, Andrew Shane Huang (aka "bunnie"). Andrew almost single handedly cracked the Xbox. He was the first one to dump the BIOS image from the Xbox, and continued to perform several other Xbox hacks and modifications. This is his story....

You're a computer guru. You've got a PhD in Computer Science from MIT. What inspired you to go the distance and get the best education possible? Were you tech savvy growing up?

Well, a lot of my choices were influenced by factors outside my control. When I was in high school, I applied one year early for college. Of the schools I applied to, MIT was one of the only ones willing to take me a year early. So, I went there partially because that was my only choice, partially because I really wanted to go there, and partially because I had some outside scholarships. I graduated in five years with a masters of engineering (a pretty standard thing to do these days), and went to work at SGI, thinking I'd never turn back...that was in 1997. I was very excited to work at SGI; their realty engine machines were legendary and it was a dream come true to be able to work with the people behind the product. Unfortunately, SGI subsequently took a big nose-dive, which was pretty disillusioning. Fortunately I had previously applied to the PhD program and deferred my admission to MIT "just in case". Under a year after I started, I left a fairly dark and depressing SGI, gutted of its prestige and employees (who, incidentally, all went to start or work for companies like ATI, 3dfx, and nVidia). I returned to MIT to find myself, and to further develop my skills and do things that I loved, namely, high performance computer architecture research. My PhD years were some of the best years of my life; total freedom to think, explore and build, to share ideas and to hang out with really smart people. Curious about how to build a walking robot? Take a month out and learn about it. Oh, and the guy who pioneered the field works down the hall. It was really cool. I did a lot of growing up during those years as well. Even though I passed up opportunities during the dot-com boom that would have allowed me to retire by now, I think it's all worth it: you can't put a price on personal happiness. Plus, I'm thinking that working in the real world just isn't a good intellectual environment. It's just hard to find the resources and opportunities to really stretch yourself in industry. Shareholders are breathing down your back to make a profit yesterday, not to advance the state of the art...and it's really hard to meet women in the work place. Bars and clubs just don't have the same depth and energy of a university campus. I'm very lucky to have met my girlfriend Nikki while I was at MIT. So...why did I get my PhD? Personal growth, intellectual freedom, and a better dating environment.

As for if I were tech savvy as a kid, I guess you could say I was. I think my tech savvy is more of an old-school savvy, though. Very nuts-and-bolts, solder-and-assembly kind of stuff. I think my curiosity began when I was maybe 10 or so; my dad brought home an Apple II clone from Taiwan that was actually a kit in pieces. It was so cool! The colors, the smells--the shiny chips with the Hitachi "bull-eye" logo were my favorite. They got me a 200-in-1 kit from Radio Shack, and I played with that a lot. By the time I was in junior high, I was capable of wire wrapping add-in cards for my Apple II, cobbled together with parts from Radio Shack and a small order from Jameco. My first real project was a voltmeter that would tell you voltage readings using a voice synthesizer for my Apple II. I used the SPO256 from General Instruments and an ADC0809 from National Semi along with some 8255's (I think) from Intel. It was all downhill from there

What's a typical day for you?

Well, I'm just getting adjusted to the whole working for a company thing. Back when I was a student, I would get up around 1 or 2 PM, open my laptop and check email in bed; think about what would be interesting to do that day, and then get out of bed and do it. Sometimes I'd have a group meeting or have to go into lab for work. Around 4PM or so I'd get my "lunch"...work some more, and then I'll catch my friends coming home from school and socialize a little bit in the evening. I'll get a beer and burger with some buddies around 8 or 9PM, and the real work starts after 10 at night...I'll usually hack until 6 or 7 AM--whenever the sun rises--and hit the sack.

Now that I'm working for a company, life has been a lot more boring and less flexible. The concept of "face time" in companies is a little bit frustrating; it seems that managers just like to be able to *see* you more than they like results from you. It's remarkable, I feel like I have less money and less time now that I'm in the "real world".

What operating system do you use?

I generally use Windows 2000. Windows XP is a crock. I'm getting pretty fed up with Win2k though; it if weren't for the fact that all the good hardware design tools are only available under windows, I'd be a Mac OS X user right now. Mac OS X is like nirvana for me; it combines my favorite OS, NeXTstep, with the best of the vanilla unix world and great hardware. Let me say that again: great hardware. A really elegant, quality machine. And oh--the iPod--it is really compelling. I'm saving up for a dual G4 these days...

What's your favorite computer-related project you have done?

That's a really tough question. I think my favorite project is almost always the one I'm working on today, maybe by definition. Perhaps the most useful project I had ever done was the SH-1 *****ded workhorse. It was a 32-bit SH-RISC microcontroller (a Hitachi product) that fit in the footprint of a business card. Its versatile analog and digital I/O features found it a home in everything from lego robots, to an autonomous underwater submarine, to home automation control. I am hoping to someday build a follow-up design that provides 10x the processing power yet fits in about the same footprint, runs RT-linux and has mass storage and wireless communication capabilities. A long-term interest of mine is prosthetic limb development, and this plus a derivative of the SH-1 workhorse would form the processing core of such a project.

How did you get involved with the Xbox?

I've always taken apart video game consoles...in particular, my PhD advisor encouraged his students to learn from the design of game consoles. They represent, in many ways, the pinnacle of high performance, low cost computing. My work on the Xbox is pretty much just routine hacking, but it really got interesting because of the tight security implemented in its design. It's like one of those finger puzzles that you play with for hours--trying to get the ball out of the cage, or what not, except it's trying to get your code to run on the Xbox. I hardly play any games on my video game consoles-- the most challenging and addictive game for me is hacking them. When I do want to play a game, I usually turn on my gamecube or GBA...and sometimes my PC.

What inspired you to hack the Xbox?

I was "inspired" by the challenge it presented in its security system. It was like choosing the red pill and seeing how far down the rabbit hole things went...every time a new part of the Xbox security was mapped out, everyone would look at each other and be like, man, they were really paranoid!

Were you challenged by the Xbox in any way?

Again, see above...the Xbox security was pretty challenging. And the bigger the challenge, the more interesting it is. I haven't really hacked on the gamecube much, or the PS2, because they don't present the same level of challenge or personal satisfaction. Well, the PS2's security has already been cracked, and the gamecube...I think its security is more practical, although less cryptographically sound. The little I know about it indicates that the gamecube uses less crypto and more hardware obscurity to make it more difficult to hack. This is, in my opinion, a superior approach for consoles because the goal is not to create a floating castle with spires and gilded doors, but just a dirt berm high enough to make any illegal operation non-profitable.


What do you think of Microsoft's attempt to modify the Xbox to prevent people like you from cracking it again?

Well, now that their v1.1 security has been cracked by Andy Green & co in under a week, I think Microsoft's attempt was pathetic. First, they cost nVidia untold millions of dollars in scrapped chips, and then they go ahead and implement a hash using an algorithm that is explicitly not suitable for hashes! I'm infuriated because I *know* they know better than to do this. I like nVidia, and I hate seeing a good hardware company being ground into the dirt by careless engineers at Microsoft. If they are going to spin the silicon, do it right. I saw with my own two eyes blank space on the MCPX die that could have been used to grow the boot overlay ROM so that it could accommodate a more complicated hash function. I mean, the new security system from Microsoft doesn't even require the current modchip vendors to change their hardware--just a reflash of the ROM is all that's required. What a waste!

Xaminor
12-06-2002, 01:08 PM
This person isn't a moron but he has definately showed his love for PC gaming and Nintendo...

Look the guy admitts the Xbox would have been the most challenging to crack and that is why he spent his time on it rather than the GC or PS 2, and then it seem as if he was mad when asked upon the issue a second time.

Then he loses tons of credibility when he mentions that if MS were going to spin the silicon they should do it right and blames MS for what he believes is a poor design in hardware, yet it is the most powerful video card up until the Radeon 9700 was released, and he blames MS, not Nvidia for this, lol.

Then he never mentions that having a modded Xbox leaves people that want to play games on Xbox Live in the dust, he just leaves way too much info out...

Last this is a quote from this guy (and I would love to E mail him if I get the chance)...

"I saw with my own two eyes blank space on the MCPX die that could have been used to grow the boot overlay ROM so that it could accommodate a more complicated hash function."

He is referring to the sound card (MCPX) which is by far the most powerful sound card of any system to date, including anything on the PC, and he wants to try and find flaws with it, the fact of the matter is that the "Space" he is referring to is a space where memory blocks can be placed and it is used for developers in their XDK's, there is another space for memory on the mother board used for the same exact thing, these are slots for developers to toy around with extra memory and then work games down from there, either this person doesn't realize this, or he does and is trying to make it seem as if the Xbox's design is flawed.

The GC may be designed a little better but not as far as piracy goes and the Xbox's was designed to utilize RAW POWER rather than tinkering with economics as Nintendo did with the GC!

This guy is a fanboy just as I or you are and he is using his knowledge as a credibility, in which he is correct but he isn't telling the entire story.

Shadow Fox
12-06-2002, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Xaminor
The GC may be designed a little better but not as far as piracy goes and the Xbox's was designed to utilize RAW POWER rather than tinkering with economics as Nintendo did with the GC!

This guy is a fanboy just as I or you are and he is using his knowledge as a credibility, in which he is correct but he isn't telling the entire story. I agree about him being an avid Nintendo fanboy, but wasn't this the same guy that was touting the Xbox as the most sophistocated hardware available? I wonder why he's shifted his interest...:confused:

I don't agree with the Raw power part, though. Both Nintendo and MS tested their own limits of profit in both consoles.

Think about it; Flipper LSI (GCN's GPU) was the most powerful and flexible GPU on the market at that point in time (February 00'). The Xbox GPU wasn't concrete until a full year later and resulted in the intial price of Xbox being $300 off the rip. Also both machines use VERY CHEAP CPU's (stripped PIII, Power PC 750) working with the cheapest micron size possible at that time.

While MS spent most of their money in manufacturing with XGPU and its HD, GCN spent most of theirs on 1T-SRAM, embedded DRAM (eDRAM for Flipper LSI), and GPU texture bandwidth.

I mean, this guy is basically telling the truth throughout; though he taints his rants with some type of bias.

For the record, Xbox is nowhere near as "flawed" as he's making it seem.

-Official Ninja of XboxAddict

Zion
12-06-2002, 02:32 PM
My prediction:

This guy will be either making:

1) My french fries at McDonald's
2) My liscense plates

within 5 years.

Cloud Strife
12-06-2002, 02:46 PM
Some people have too much time on their hands.:rolleyes:

darianX
12-06-2002, 02:54 PM
He might be so smart that he's stupid....here is a quote: Mac OS X is like nirvana for me; it combines my favorite OS, NeXTstep,......Whoa there pardner!! OS X is the operating system, duh, why else would it be called OS X (X for 10) ? NeXT is not an operating system..it is/was a GUI for Unix, like KDE and GNOME are for Linux. Furthermore, unless OS X allows you to replace the GUI or window manager, he isn't seeing NeXT by default. Now I would think that a real geek like that fellow would know that.

Shadow Fox
12-06-2002, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by darianX
He might be so smart that he's stupid....here is a quote: Mac OS X is like nirvana for me; it combines my favorite OS, NeXTstep,......Whoa there pardner!! OS X is the operating system, duh, why else would it be called OS X (X for 10) ? NeXT is not an operating system..it is/was a GUI for Unix, like KDE and GNOME are for Linux. Furthermore, unless OS X allows you to replace the GUI or window manager, he isn't seeing NeXT by default. Now I would think that a real geek like that fellow would know that. Well, technically you can put any frontend on Jaguar (OS X 10.2) if you wanted to...like the original 10.0.4, There is adeveloper tools disc that not only allows you to modify the Unix command prompt, but basically allows you to rewrite OSX as well.

As far as Next, well I'm sure he meant Unix (since most peeps I know name their GUI for Unix instead of Unix itself to set it apart from Linux). Still a minor mishap on his behalf...;)

-Official Ninja of XboxAddict

Unreal
12-06-2002, 06:21 PM
:rolleyes:

ARONO129
12-06-2002, 11:08 PM
I know people like this that are so advanced in one area of life that they can't function in other areas.

If this guy were a doctor I bet he would inject someone with a deadly desease just to see if he could cure them.

Obvoiusly he is intelligent but a hacker is a hacker is a hacker.

Evil_Dr_Beefy
12-06-2002, 11:40 PM
Say what you will about bunnie...but he was the first guy to crack the security and dump the bios...without him...xbox chips wouldn't be possible. According to some of the hacker sites...the xbox security is a joke....they have allready broken the code for unbanning your xbox if your caught with the chip. I think the guy is alot smarter than you think he is.....i know he's leaving alot out...let's just say a little bird told me......You guys keep forgetting that the best and brightest hackers are working on the xbox's security....and they don't do it for the money....they do it for the thrill of it.....when you can be the first..to break the unbreakable......people sit up and take notice.....the modchips are an after thought...........................

Mace-Windu
12-07-2002, 09:13 AM
This guy was on TechTV's "The Screen Savers" a LONG time ago and he was actually pretty cool. He showed off what was in his XBox and what he could do but was told by Microsoft that if he let out how he did it they would sue him.

Cloud Strife
12-08-2002, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by Mace-Windu
This guy was on TechTV's "The Screen Savers" a LONG time ago and he was actually pretty cool. He showed off what was in his XBox and what he could do but was told by Microsoft that if he let out how he did it they would sue him. They need to sue him.

Shorezy
12-08-2002, 10:46 AM
This guy seems to think pretty highly of himself :rolleyes: Too bad he just confessed he's a hacker. Isn't there something MS can do about this? I mean, the guy just admitted he cracked the Box. Personally I think he's a bit of a low-life. Anyway, what was said earlier about him bein a doctor and injecting someone with a deadly disease is a good point....This guy's a goof :)

shnike123
12-09-2002, 12:25 PM
HEh
im glad not to be like this dude.
what a geek i mean who spends 400 hours seeing if they can change the boot screen i mean its freakin pointless. Why dont they just design there own gaming console or something but this dude is just ridiculous in my opinion

Cloud Strife
12-09-2002, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by shnike123
HEh
im glad not to be like this dude.
what a geek i mean who spends 400 hours seeing if they can change the boot screen i mean its freakin pointless. Why dont they just design there own gaming console or something but this dude is just ridiculous in my opinion Yup, he is a geek. ;)

Qbas
12-09-2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by shnike123
HEh
im glad not to be like this dude.
what a geek i mean who spends 400 hours seeing if they can change the boot screen i mean its freakin pointless. Why dont they just design there own gaming console or something but this dude is just ridiculous in my opinion
And the same could be said on people who plays 400 hours only games and surfs the net ;)

Dre
12-09-2002, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by shnike123
HEh
im glad not to be like this dude.
what a geek i mean who spends 400 hours seeing if they can change the boot screen i mean its freakin pointless. Why dont they just design there own gaming console or something but this dude is just ridiculous in my opinion

Dumbass, its obviously the challenge that drives him to continue. Any engineering student or engineer (or related fields) will tell you that. It might seem mundane for you, but its hard to do and thats whats so much fun about doing it. If you can't understand that some people like to challenge themselves intellectually, then "I'm glad not be like you".

LynxFX
12-09-2002, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by halo_11
Isn't there something MS can do about this? I mean, the guy just admitted he cracked the Box.
Yeah they can give him a high paying job. That's usually what happens anyway and if it isn't MS it will be someone else. Very few people hack for the glory but rather for the check on their underground resume. It is all about getting placed into a job.

# 1 Stunner
12-09-2002, 06:57 PM
ya this guy could use a life..:rolleyes:

carlbme
12-09-2002, 07:14 PM
For all of you saying that guy's like this need a life or are losers.

Look at your computer. Then think about the guy's who hashed out it's design. Think about the 400 hours they spent trying to find the best layout of the motherboard. What features to impliment, what features they could create and add to the bios...

If it weren't for people like this we'd still be living with technology from the 1800's. No tv's, radios, phones, computers, internet...the list could continue to grow.

They do not do it to cheat people out of things. They do it because they like to. Because to them it is fun. Just like to some of you to game is fun, or to play football is fun.

# 1 Stunner
12-09-2002, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by carlbme
For all of you saying that guy's like this need a life or are losers.

Look at your computer. Then think about the guy's who hashed out it's design. Think about the 400 hours they spent trying to find the best layout of the motherboard. What features to impliment, what features they could create and add to the bios...

If it weren't for people like this we'd still be living with technology from the 1800's. No tv's, radios, phones, computers, internet...the list could continue to grow.

They do not do it to cheat people out of things. They do it because they like to. Because to them it is fun. Just like to some of you to game is fun, or to play football is fun.
very true..i guess it goes back to this statement its a dirty job but somebodys gott a do it..:D

LynxFX
12-09-2002, 07:19 PM
Well put carlbme.

Guys or Gals like this also provide a service. They show the vulnerbilities of systems, in this case the Xbox. This inturn provides a base and an incentive to increase the security or fix the holes that were missed during the intial run. It is only those that exploit these holes that give hackers, phreakers etc a bad name. So far this guy hasn't shown any motive to exploit his findings and hurt microsoft.