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View Full Version : Is innovation and originality long gone in gaming?



AlBoogy
12-29-2002, 10:35 AM
I started thinking the other day about what games ive been enjoying the most and which ones im looking forward to. I realized, almost all of them have some sort of violence or shooting in them. Think about the top 3 games this year for all consoles. GTA Vice City, Splinter Cell and Metroid Prime. All of them have shooting. And one takes violence to a whole new level. Look, Im not one of these peope that thinks games shouldnt be sold to kids and violence in games makes people go crazy. At all. My favorite genre is FPS. The games I enjoy the most right now are Ghost Recon and UC. And the games Im most looking forward to are Halo 2 and Brute Force. But occassionally I like to see something different being offered to videogame fans or in other words the "hardcore" gamer.

Im just wondering will anyone grow the guts to come out with new, innovative games? I personally think thats why Dreamcast died. They tried too hard to make something new. A new experience. But as time passed with DC and software sales were lower then expected on titles such as Shenmue and Jet Set Radio (yeah these games had a little violence in them but they were fresh, new ideas) I realized one thing, Videogames has gone to the casual gamer. Sorry if this comes off like a rant or whatever and I thank anyone who read this far. Its just a thought Ive had of the current state of videogames for a whle now. And I wanted to share my thoughts with you all. Has anyone else had these thoughts? Or anyone disagree?

Cloud Strife
12-29-2002, 11:14 AM
I can agree a little bit with what your saying. Innovation has been dying down a bit. Luckily, the Xbox has it and the GC has a little bit of it. I found games like Blinx and Gun Valkyrie to have innovation. Deathrow is another one. The last videogame system to have a lot of innovation was the Dreamcast. The DC had Shenmue, Samba De Amigo, Seman, Phantasy Star Online, Jet Grind Radio, etc. The Sega Saturn had Nights and Burning Rangers. Those kind of games were completely different than anything else I ever played before then on consoles. That is why I still like the Dreamcast very much. I'll admit that Sega is starting to lose it a little since they've gone multi-platform. Although I find most of their Xbox games great, their other system games are more of rehases just to make money.

EHWfedPres
12-29-2002, 03:07 PM
Um, which of those games took violence to a new level? Thats right, neither. Play Solider of Fortune or Thrill Kill, makes Vice City look like childs play.

LTM360
12-29-2002, 04:06 PM
I can agree with almost everything, I've been playing video games for years now, and I personnally don't like the direction video games are going, I'll be the first to tell you I was looking forward to Vice City, and bought it on its release date, When I played it, all it was, was killing, drugs, and violence. Like you said, I could care less about the content, but that's all it was! There was no difficulty to it, there was no innovation, just kill people, that's it. I was very very happy when Contra returned to its roots in Shattered Soldier, I got it this christmas and love it to death like I did the ones on NES, SNES, and Genesis. I wish gaming companies would look at this game, no blood, no cursing, not extreme violence, and its much better than Vice City ever will be. Ironic isn't it.

EHWfedPres
12-29-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by LTM360
and its much better than Vice City ever will be.

Thats an opinion...not a fact. :)

Evil_Dr_Beefy
12-29-2002, 04:46 PM
Oh boy, the old there is no innovation in videogames rant...let me ask you a question...what is innovation? Is it playing something new? Or is it taking a gamble on something only to find that the gaming publc hates it....but at the same time..it can pay off..steel battalion.....i don't think that any western game makers would have the balls to release a title like that here...That's not a bash on western gamemakers...it just that very few companies want to take that gamble...innovation is in the eye of the beholder

EHWfedPres
12-29-2002, 04:52 PM
I think that innovation still exists, but mostly within the genre. Halo revolutionized the FPS genre while Deathrow livened up a dying one (extreme fictious sports in the future). But games like Madden and Tony Hawk are always the same crap year after year. Steel Battalion is new and innovative. If you think its not, then find me one other game that has its own 40 button controller (pc games and a kayboard dont count of course). What about Splinter Cell? You have to make use of light and darkness and sound if you want to get anything done. Also, look at Project Ego (or fable if you will) and BC, and even morrowind...very innovative.

Evil_Dr_Beefy
12-29-2002, 05:34 PM
Ok, halo is nothing more than cool graphics and smarter badguys in a very cool package..it's still a fps...just like halflife..splinter cell is metalgear to the next level....all the game maker did was take the best of some game and added a new twist..innovation is in the eye of the beholder.....untill we "the hardcore" can show game companys that innovation =profits..there won't be any..not for a very long time. Still what is innovation? is it a new idea done right to equal profit......a gamble....Mmm....

EHWfedPres
12-29-2002, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Evil_Dr_Beefy
Ok, halo is nothing more than cool graphics and smarter badguys in a very cool package..it's still a fps


You are wrong. Halo only allows you to have 2 weapons, which makes for more strategic combat, multiplayer vehicles, customizable gameplay modes, well designed multiplayer levels, etc. You must not have played much Halo, i can tell. try playing with at least 8 people, you'll love the game to death.

Xbox Owner
12-29-2002, 05:42 PM
Damn get GC if you want non-violent games..not saying gc is kiddy, but it has mario and that..which are fun..but not shooting and ****.

Evil_Dr_Beefy
12-29-2002, 05:49 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean that as a bash to Halo..please forgive me.....i haven't played it mutiplayer yet....I don't know the whole innovation thing...there is some..and i can see both points of view..i guess that we gamers are just hungry for new idea, and new worlds to play in...i guess that just takes times. :D I guess that innovation is like porn (work with me , son) you know it when you see it....

BCan
12-30-2002, 07:35 AM
As someone mentioned earlier, innovation is in the eye of the beholder...

Some of us see that Halo has been innovative with it's take on the FPS, like Splinter Cells, as was Half Life's on PC.

I do agree that there are barely any really "new" ideas as such, even Steel Batallion is another Mech game, only the controller sets it apart..

I think Blinx is one of the first ones to show some real innovation, by using the hardware of the console to change how the game is played. I mean to record yourself doing stuff, then play it, and have yourself doing more stuff. I love the idea of the game playing like a video, allowing for rewind, fast forward, pause....

I will have to get it soon....

It is more than console gaming that is stuck in the formulaic production of material, listen to music, or watch TV and you will see the same ideas over and over and over again....

TheCovenant
12-30-2002, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by EHWfedPres


Thats an opinion...not a fact. :)


just like this?


Um, which of those games took violence to a new level? Thats right, neither. Play Solider of Fortune or Thrill Kill, makes Vice City look like childs play.

in vice city, you can have sex with a hooker, and then kill her. that's more violent than any fps out so far.

except maybe duke nukem (remember tyhe strippers? you could kill them)

Snoopy7548
12-30-2002, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by AlBoogy
I realized, almost all of them have some sort of violence or shooting in them. Think about the top 3 games this year for all consoles. GTA Vice City, Splinter Cell and Metroid Prime. All of them have shooting.

splinter cell isnt really an fps, and it doesnt have THAT much shooting. like in some missions, you cant even use your gun, you must use the shadows and everything to win the mission. i consider that an innovation. thats like the first game where you have to pay attention to the lighting and use it to your advantage.

TheCovenant
12-30-2002, 08:24 AM
as for innovation,

fable, B.C., halo 2 (vehicles,massive outdoor lush battles),galaxies (there is so much there), phantasy star ( it's old, but new to many), steel battalion, bmx:XXX.

innovation is not dead. it never will be. every time somebody tries to make a game better, that's innovation.

and since no genre is perfect, there will always be room for innovation, and if theres room for innovation theres room for profit, which everyone is interested in, and will always fuel the cycle:cool:

Cloud Strife
12-30-2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by TheCovenant
as for innovation,

fable, B.C., halo 2 (vehicles,massive outdoor lush battles),galaxies (there is so much there), phantasy star ( it's old, but new to many), steel battalion, bmx:XXX.

innovation is not dead. it never will be. every time somebody tries to make a game better, that's innovation.

and since no genre is perfect, there will always be room for innovation, and if theres room for innovation theres room for profit, which everyone is interested in, and will always fuel the cycle:cool: you conisder BMX XXX inovation.:confused: I thought that game was put together just for people that like to look at strip clubs.

AlBoogy
12-30-2002, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by TheCovenant
as for innovation,

fable, B.C., halo 2 (vehicles,massive outdoor lush battles),galaxies (there is so much there), phantasy star ( it's old, but new to many), steel battalion, bmx:XXX.

innovation is not dead. it never will be. every time somebody tries to make a game better, that's innovation.

and since no genre is perfect, there will always be room for innovation, and if theres room for innovation theres room for profit, which everyone is interested in, and will always fuel the cycle:cool:

I agree with burning ranger. BMX isnt an innovative game. Its just plain trash trying to make a buck with shock factor. You kinda contradict yourself. You say innovation isnt dead but yet you name halo 2. Thats the point Im trying to make. Bungie feels the pressure of putting out halo 2 before putting out any other new project. Why? Because now the public is fixated on halo. Theres no doubt halo 2 will be an amazing game but for a long time they talked about making a different game and they had to put it on the backburners.
My other point is innovative games are backed by companies with large pockets. Fable? backed by PM and has loads of cash not to mention MS is financing probably the entire project. And Steel Batallion. Must we say who made that?

TheCovenant
12-31-2002, 07:15 AM
well, it's trash, but how many game have you seen with nudity that raw? revolutionize the industry.

halo 2 has so many new innovative things, that it is, well, an innovated game.

and if a company needs money too bring a new concept into the genre, so be it.

that does not mean innovetion is dead.

as for introducing naked chicks into a bicycle game, that takes innovation, don't you agree?

i'm not saying i'm a fan of it, nor of the bmx series in general, it's just that, that was something new to the genre, thus it was innovated.

BCan
12-31-2002, 08:48 AM
How is Galaxies innovative? It's EverQuest, or Ultima Online with a Star Wars flavour.....

You look deep and hard enough, most games out there are just small changes to what we have already have....

AlBoogy
12-31-2002, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by BCan
How is Galaxies innovative? It's EverQuest, or Ultima Online with a Star Wars flavour.....

You look deep and hard enough, most games out there are just small changes to what we have already have....

I agree. Although seaman on DC was pretty uhhh strange lol

Crazy Joe
12-31-2002, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by AlBoogy


I agree. Although seaman on DC was pretty uhhh strange lol

this is the problem and why innovative games are on the decline. When Bungie makes Halo 2, it's a guaranteed huge money maker. If they were to make a more experimental game, something new, like seaman, there is no guarantee it's gonna be successful.

TheCovenant
12-31-2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by BCan
How is Galaxies innovative? It's EverQuest, or Ultima Online with a Star Wars flavour.....

You look deep and hard enough, most games out there are just small changes to what we have already have....


it is very different for everquest. that little star wars flavor thing you said changes a lot.

thats like saying knights of the old republic is baldurs gate with a star wars flavor

and that's the thing. if you look in any game, there is still some innovation.

you dont see any sequals or paradies that are EXACTLY the same as the previous game.

and so what if they can capitalize on the halo name, that doesn't mean it wont be innovative.
what you're suggesting is that if you can make money off of it, then it isn't innovative, and that's simply untrue.

darianX
01-02-2003, 02:01 AM
As a wise man once said "There is nothing new under the sun". Everything borrows from something else. Wolfenstein 3D was the first FPS....every shooter since borrows from it. Adding stuff here and there (ala Halo's 2 weapon restriction) is simply supplementing to what has already been established. And speaking of Halo2, the game hasn't been seen running by anyone yet so please don't be stupid and say it's innovative when no one here has seen it...and no the movie does not count. Bump mapping has been around for a while now...and H2's usage of it isn't exactly innovative because it's been done before on the PC.

JSRF, when broken down, is only a platformer on skates at it's core. Gunvalkyrie is a 3rd person shooter/platformer with a funky control method. Halo is a FPS with above average AI and weapon restrictions. Really, almost every game available has been done before, it's the little addons that make them feel new and fresh again. And that's a good thing because there isn't much that hasn't been done already. There truly is nothing new under the sun.

TheCovenant
01-02-2003, 06:38 AM
Originally posted by darianX
As a wise man once said "There is nothing new under the sun". Everything borrows from something else. Wolfenstein 3D was the first FPS....every shooter since borrows from it. Adding stuff here and there (ala Halo's 2 weapon restriction) is simply supplementing to what has already been established. And speaking of Halo2, the game hasn't been seen running by anyone yet so please don't be stupid and say it's innovative when no one here has seen it...and no the movie does not count. Bump mapping has been around for a while now...and H2's usage of it isn't exactly innovative because it's been done before on the PC.

JSRF, when broken down, is only a platformer on skates at it's core. Gunvalkyrie is a 3rd person shooter/platformer with a funky control method. Halo is a FPS with above average AI and weapon restrictions. Really, almost every game available has been done before, it's the little addons that make them feel new and fresh again. And that's a good thing because there isn't much that hasn't been done already. There truly is nothing new under the sun.


wow you just love your pc, don't you?

we never said anything about anything being "new". the thread is about innovation. and halo 1 has more bump mapping than all the pc games put together. pc games are still in the "more polygons at a higher resolution=better graphics!", which is clearly not the case. i mean sure, it'll look sharper but bump mapping is everything. Just look at doom 3. first ever game to use more bump mapping techniques than halo, and only competing with halo 2.
and although i haven't seen halo 2 running, i have read articles about all the new things they are innovating . gunvalkrie was very innovative, in the weird contro scheme, and 3rd person shooter/platformer. it was hard to control at first. but towards the end of the game you were jumpin across platforms as thick as a needle and taking out bad guys from every possible direction. it was cool.

BCan
01-02-2003, 08:44 AM
And from what we have read, you think the changing of blue to red is an innovation too!!!

C'mon, there are many games out there that have no real innovation, they do nothing new, just rehash the same ideas, with small changes to the themes....

I don't call small and insignificant changes innovation. I call a complete shift from the norm innovation. Innovation, by its definition, is the introduction of something new, which you say isn't what innovation is. To use bump mapping isn't innovative, it is using the hardware capabilities....

I call the introduction of 3D cards innovative, it changed the games scene entirely. I call the introduction of sound cards innovative.....

One thing that I do not call innovation is using the relatively same ideas as someone else, use a different theme to it, and call it innovative. I call these things refining, since they do not redefine a gaming genre.
Innovative games reinvent the game genre, or even spawn new ones. Mockery is the sincerest form of flattery. IF everyone starts to follow the lead set by one game, then that game is seen as innovative....

A good sign of an innovative game is the comparison of new games that have "Not as good as Game X" or "Game X sets a new standard". Quality in a game, usually means it has taken the hardware to the limit, but doesn't necessarily mean it is innovative.
Half Life changed FPS, Halo set the standard for all console games, and Blinx is innovative in that it changes the way a game can be played. It allows for a non linear game, allows the player to use it like a video, with VCR style functions that can be used to escape situations..

Now that is innovation, not the "new" FPS that has some new theme, but still plays like every other game out there...........

AlBoogy
01-02-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by BCan
And from what we have read, you think the changing of blue to red is an innovation too!!!

C'mon, there are many games out there that have no real innovation, they do nothing new, just rehash the same ideas, with small changes to the themes....

I don't call small and insignificant changes innovation. I call a complete shift from the norm innovation. Innovation, by its definition, is the introduction of something new, which you say isn't what innovation is. To use bump mapping isn't innovative, it is using the hardware capabilities....

I call the introduction of 3D cards innovative, it changed the games scene entirely. I call the introduction of sound cards innovative.....

One thing that I do not call innovation is using the relatively same ideas as someone else, use a different theme to it, and call it innovative. I call these things refining, since they do not redefine a gaming genre.
Innovative games reinvent the game genre, or even spawn new ones. Mockery is the sincerest form of flattery. IF everyone starts to follow the lead set by one game, then that game is seen as innovative....

A good sign of an innovative game is the comparison of new games that have "Not as good as Game X" or "Game X sets a new standard". Quality in a game, usually means it has taken the hardware to the limit, but doesn't necessarily mean it is innovative.
Half Life changed FPS, Halo set the standard for all console games, and Blinx is innovative in that it changes the way a game can be played. It allows for a non linear game, allows the player to use it like a video, with VCR style functions that can be used to escape situations..

Now that is innovation, not the "new" FPS that has some new theme, but still plays like every other game out there...........

I agree with you for the most part. But you make the biggest point of all,,, look at Blinx. How often do games like that pop up? And when games like that DO come out, are they successful?

TheCovenant
01-02-2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by BCan
And from what we have read, you think the changing of blue to red is an innovation too!!!

C'mon, there are many games out there that have no real innovation, they do nothing new, just rehash the same ideas, with small changes to the themes....

I don't call small and insignificant changes innovation. I call a complete shift from the norm innovation. Innovation, by its definition, is the introduction of something new, which you say isn't what innovation is. To use bump mapping isn't innovative, it is using the hardware capabilities....

I call the introduction of 3D cards innovative, it changed the games scene entirely. I call the introduction of sound cards innovative.....

One thing that I do not call innovation is using the relatively same ideas as someone else, use a different theme to it, and call it innovative. I call these things refining, since they do not redefine a gaming genre.
Innovative games reinvent the game genre, or even spawn new ones. Mockery is the sincerest form of flattery. IF everyone starts to follow the lead set by one game, then that game is seen as innovative....

A good sign of an innovative game is the comparison of new games that have "Not as good as Game X" or "Game X sets a new standard". Quality in a game, usually means it has taken the hardware to the limit, but doesn't necessarily mean it is innovative.
Half Life changed FPS, Halo set the standard for all console games, and Blinx is innovative in that it changes the way a game can be played. It allows for a non linear game, allows the player to use it like a video, with VCR style functions that can be used to escape situations..

Now that is innovation, not the "new" FPS that has some new theme, but still plays like every other game out there...........



innovation is taking an old idea and adding to it so it's new and better. all of the games i mention do this.

Zen
01-02-2003, 09:11 PM
the idea of innovation itself has evolved... you keep needing more and more innovations on top of innovations... by yesterdays standards many of each of those lil innovations were huge innovations a while ago... it just takes a while to get a final game on the scene before everyones caught wind and using sed innovations and making them commonplace... in order to wow people NOW you have to go beyond innovation, you have to Build from the ground up: an Innovative, innovation.

We've seen innovation on the Xbox... and theres games comming that i beleive are definately quite innovative... Fable being the one that really hits my mind. but like all great remembered acheivements... it takes time to see the massive ones...cause if they came around to often...then that sort of creativity is no longer innovative... and you have to go a step beyond what a big innovation was...

everytime something comes out our expectations triple for the enxt thing... thats some pressure, my guess is it takes a bit of time for the developers to catch up to your thirst...

when halo came out...what couldve came out soon afdter that would have had you feeling the same way? it would have to have been a game nobody had ever contemplated before...an amazing game...because you were already hoisted up on your excitement with halo...that youd need a halo type breakthrough on top of halo... so, im glad sevearly innovative games dont come out every day... or even every quarter

i dont want to get bored through over stimulation


Wow i just read that over, but it makes sence to me
:p

TheCovenant
01-02-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Zen
the idea of innovation itself has evolved... you keep needing more and more innovations on top of innovations... by yesterdays standards many of each of those lil innovations were huge innovations a while ago... it just takes a while to get a final game on the scene before everyones caught wind and using sed innovations and making them commonplace... in order to wow people NOW you have to go beyond innovation, you have to Build from the ground up: an Innovative, innovation.

We've seen innovation on the Xbox... and theres games comming that i beleive are definately quite innovative... Fable being the one that really hits my mind. but like all great remembered acheivements... it takes time to see the massive ones...cause if they came around to often...then that sort of creativity is no longer innovative... and you have to go a step beyond what a big innovation was...

everytime something comes out our expectations triple for the enxt thing... thats some pressure, my guess is it takes a bit of time for the developers to catch up to your thirst...

when halo came out...what couldve came out soon afdter that would have had you feeling the same way? it would have to have been a game nobody had ever contemplated before...an amazing game...because you were already hoisted up on your excitement with halo...that youd need a halo type breakthrough on top of halo... so, im glad sevearly innovative games dont come out every day... or even every quarter

i dont want to get bored through over stimulation


Wow i just read that over, but it makes sence to me
:p


completely agree. thank you, someone finally see's it that way. if that last post would be a counter argument, my post would have been..........


"i apologize, i was wrong and everyone else is right. innovation is dead."

but wooooooooooooohoooooooooooooo! someone agrees with me finally.

Zen
01-02-2003, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by TheCovenant



completely agree. thank you, someone finally see's it that way. if that last post would be a counter argument, my post would have been..........


"i apologize, i was wrong and everyone else is right. innovation is dead."

but wooooooooooooohoooooooooooooo! someone agrees with me finally.
*Grabs one of those crazy green covenent plasma rifles*

...we can hold'em


Speakin of rifles... where and when are you on Unreal usually?

BCan
01-03-2003, 06:19 AM
It's more to the point, that we tend to disagree in what you consider innovation, and what we call innovation. Perhaps we are being that little bit tougher on the game developer....

After all, SW:Galaxies is being produced by the same people that made Ever Quest, Verant Software... Is that being innovative? Hardly....

What other games are similar to Blinx? Name them, I doubt that there has been any mainstream game that has been intended to be played as a video at times.....
Bullet time in Max Payne was innovation in the gaming sphere, using cinema technology in a PC game, or their version of it.....

scarecrow kfj
01-03-2003, 04:32 PM
I think there is a little org out there now I mean sc isnt really about shooting its more about hiding and trying to knock players out. I do get the point though and I wouldnt mind seeing new ideas either but look at a lot of comments on game reviews... I am just going to use SC as an example. If you read through the reviews a lot of comments involved state co-op and multi player and that more guns should be used and unlockable content.... Now SC might not ba as org as starting a new gener like mario party but it is a game based on stealth a sim you might say. Now if you play the game before what would be the point of co-op. Mp on the game wouldnt make much sence either. On split screen what am I going to do run up and knock you out? Its a stealth game.
Ideas I think now are based more on the storey line for the fact that most ideas are taken. you can be in a mech or a merc but either way you are going through missions taken people out... now one is a mech and one is a person but is there really a diff? the storey is really what makes the diff. Plus a lot of new ideas get shot down quick cause it is diff and a lot of people are scared to try something new..... look at Fuzion Frenzy