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Corona
03-16-2003, 03:49 PM
Also, why would you mod your xbox, to play ps2,GC or what?

Also why are they showing people how to get your console to play dvd when all you have to do is buy and stick in the remote control reciever into the control port?

I guess i have a few questions about that whole artilce on the front page, if anyone wants to further elaborate be more than willing to.

Thanks:cool:

wbio
03-16-2003, 04:32 PM
This is what the article says:


In undoubtedly the most bizarre announcement in television history (ok besides the Michael Jackson thing), TechTv or more importantly the Screensavers had announced that they had planned to run a five part series on modding the Xbox. Mysteriously though the TechTV website has been updated with the following statement.

We planned on starting a series of Xbox mods on the show tonight. Unfortunately, we have to delay the series. We hope to show you some slick Xbox mods in the coming weeks.
Originally the plan was to break the modding experience up into five shows that would have looked something like this:

Friday 3/14 - Modding the Xbox
Monday 3/17 - How to Install Evox.
Tuesday 3/18 - Upgrade the HD
Wednesday 3/19 - Play Movies & MP3s
Thursday 3/20 - Load Games from Your HD.
Sounds interesting.

Viper87227
03-16-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by wbio
This is what the article says:


Sounds interesting.


I thought modding your xbox was illeagle.... so wouldn't a weeks worth of shows about it get TechTV into alot of touble?

I would like to watch these but sadly a few months ago I stopped getting Tech TV... its still in my direct tv menu but when I go to the channel its just a blank sceen (no to order dial extension x721 or anything just a blank screen).. has anybody else had this problem and know how to fix it?:confused:

Motley
03-16-2003, 05:02 PM
I think Tech Tv got a call from M/S, and the conversation started something like this:

"You are doing what?... What address should we send the lawsuit to?"

For whoever asked about TechTv on Direct Tv, I have DirectTv also and still get it fine.

BCan
03-16-2003, 05:34 PM
Technically, it isn't really illegal to mod the XBOX, just ask Sony and their court case RE: Playstation Mod Chips here in Australia. You are asking a consumer to not to after-sale changes to the device, which isn't illegal for anything out there. "OH, I am sorry Sir, those mag wheels are banned by the manufacturer of your car".

Get real.

To mod a piece of electronic equipment seems to be a minefield at the moment. All I say is that the warranty is voided and that there is no guarantee that any new games will work on the modded machine. After all we have third party pieces for the outside of the XBOX, what is wrong with the inside as well...

Corona
03-16-2003, 09:34 PM
But to answer yours it is illegal, because remember when you first bought you Xbox, what did it say?

Exactly, This is what it said, but in different wording for us lazy gamers!

I decided to get the real documents that would be used in court to prosecute one who does not comply with the wording stated

This is apart of Consumer Group Contract No. 19355

[
3.5 No Reproduction of Finished Product Units Except by Microsoft or
Authorized Replicators. Licensee acknowledges that this Agreement does not
grant Licensee the right to reproduce or otherwise manufacture Finished Product
Units itself, or on its behalf, other than with Microsoft or an Authorized
Replicator. Licensee must use Microsoft or an Authorized Replicator to produce
Finished Product Units, pursuant to Section 4.

3.6 No Reverse Engineering. Licensee may utilize and study the design,
performance and operation of Xbox solely for the purposes of developing the
Software Title. Notwithstanding the foregoing, Licensee shall not, directly or
indirectly, reverse engineer or aid or assist in the reverse engineering of all
or any part of Xbox except and only to the extent that such activity is
expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation. Reverse
engineering includes, without limitation, decompiling, disassembly, sniffing,
peeling semiconductor components, or otherwise deriving source code. In
addition to any other rights and remedies that Microsoft may have under the
circumstances, Licensee shall be required in all cases to pay royalties to
Microsoft in accordance with Section 6 below with respect to any games or other
products that are developed, marketed or distributed by Licensee, and derived
in whole or in part from the reverse engineering of Xbox or any Microsoft data,
code or other material.

Corona
03-16-2003, 09:43 PM
Xbox is kind of *** for this.. Legaly buy purchasing an Xbox console, we abide by a contract that states the following

We are not Owners of our xbox product, but yet licensed to use it

Playstation never tried any crap like that! if you want to know what it says on your box and thew it out here

License: software in and with the xbox console is licensed to you, not sold. you are licensed to use the software only with your xbox and you may not reverse engineer it except as expressly permitted by applicable Law nonwithstanding this limitation

Viper87227
03-16-2003, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Corona
Xbox is kind of *** for this.. Legaly buy purchasing an Xbox console, we abide by a contract that states the following

We are not Owners of our xbox product, but yet licensed to use it

Playstation never tried any crap like that! if you want to know what it says on your box and thew it out here

License: software in and with the xbox console is licensed to you, not sold. you are licensed to use the software only with your xbox and you may not reverse engineer it except as expressly permitted by applicable Law nonwithstanding this limitation

OMFG!!!! Microsoft is the most generous corperation out there! They actually allowed me to pay a mere $200 for the license to use there hardware... And all this time I though all I got was ownership of my console! I am so lucky!!!!!

A.K.A. Mircosoft is and always will be fine print ass holes :(

Kraft
03-16-2003, 11:04 PM
Im not seeing where any of those legal instances you posting affect opening and modding your xbox. You aren't reverse engineering it, you are just modding it. You also aren't replicating the finished product, you are just adding to it. And yes, we can't duplicate the software that comes with the xbox, but that is to protect against emulation, as mod chips get rid of it and there isn't anything stated against that.

The only thing they might possibly be able to say is the mod chip designers reverse engineered the xbox to create the chip... but that is a pretty slim case. Does anyone have any more legal stipulations that might prevent it?

VenoM
03-17-2003, 12:03 AM
man...wish i still had techtv...stupid comcast replaced it with the yes network..another damn sport channel...:( like there isnt enough sport channels....those bastages...ive been without the channel for over a year...use to love watching call for help, screen savers and extended play....leo laporte is the reason i have a computer...i use to watch his show before i bought one and he really got me interested in them and cause of him i went ahead and got my A+ certification :D leo rules!

LynxFX
03-17-2003, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by Viper87227
OMFG!!!! Microsoft is the most generous corperation out there! They actually allowed me to pay a mere $200 for the license to use there hardware... And all this time I though all I got was ownership of my console! I am so lucky!!!!!

A.K.A. Mircosoft is and always will be fine print ass holes :(

Just an FYI, nearly every maker of software has that line or a line similar to that in their EULA. Why do you think they call it 'licenses'?

BCan
03-17-2003, 07:07 AM
Except where under applicable law - that is also in all EULA (Which are still in debate as to whether they are legally enforcable). You don't lose your legal rights by just seeing their EULA, it is just where those rights are not protected under law MS can take the stance that they try to make in the EULA.

This is contract law, and the EULA is read, and only be able to be read by the purchaser AFTER the sale is complete, which is therefore a completed contract. It was not with MS directly, but through a third party, but is still a contract between the buyer and MS. Conventional contract law says that when a sale is complete, so is the contract, so any clauses made known to parties after this time are null and void, since the contract is already complete. So, in conventional law, ANY EULA is pretty much well worthless.

Just because you know it's going to be there, since it's common practice of all software and hardware companies, doesn't make it something that defies the precedent of contract law. Installing the software, or using the hardware doesn't make the contract complete, so it can't be a time to tell the person what they legally can and can't do with what they have purchased.
Trademark, patent and copyright law have more relevance in what these mods are doing, than what is in the EULA.

You, yourself are not reverse engineering it, nor are you doing replication of the OS, so where is what YOU, the owner doing anything wrong.


I have said it before in regards to software, and hardware is no different. You can't tell people what do with their things AFTER teh sale is complete IF the relevant clauses aren't made known to the parties beforehand. So, if the EULA is able to be printed on the back of a game box, or console, then those EULA's are enforcable - until then, I will take any EULA with a grain of salt.

MS can have their EULA's and shove them in our face, but they don't present it to us before purchase, so how can it be enforcable.

Corona
03-17-2003, 03:30 PM
Hey Bcan I see that you are on par with today’s legal authorization, and I totally disagree with “kraft-xba”. But I will continue this discussion with you for indulgent and argumentative sake.

Bottom line is I too would like to get to the bottom of these legal half truths.

This is apart of EXHIBIT C


BRANDING SPECIFICATIONS

The following guidelines apply whenever Licensee places a copy of any Licensed
Trademark on the Software Title, or related collateral materials.

- Licensee may use the Licensed Trademarks solely on the retail box,
documentation, and Art & Marketing Materials for the Software Title,
and in no other manner.

- Licensee's name, logo, or trademark must appear on any materials
where the Licensed Trademarks are used, and must be larger and more
prominent than the Licensed Trademarks.

- The Licensed Trademarks may not be used in any manner that expresses
or might imply Microsoft's affiliation, sponsorship, endorsement,
certification, or approval, other than as contemplated by this
Agreement.

- The Licensed Trademarks may not be included in any non-Microsoft
trade name, business name, domain name, product or service name,
logo, trade dress, design, slogan, or other trademark.

- Licensee may use the Licensed Trademarks only as provided by
Microsoft electronically or in hard copy form. Except for size
subject to the restrictions herein, the Licensed Trademarks may not
be altered in any manner, including proportions, colors, elements,
etc., or animated, morphed, or otherwise distorted in perspective or
dimensional appearance.

Corona
03-17-2003, 03:38 PM
What this basicaly states is that Microsoft isn't going to be undermined...

As far as the EULA goes, since when has microsoft ever been compared with other company's in the same breath (especialy with foriegn company's) If this was the case then the Federal government wouldn't have stepped in and dismembered Microsoft from becoming a Monopoly 5 years ago.

Personaly, as far as XBOX goes, I think the Anti Trust should be disallowing these legal boundries and start prohibiting rather than permiting. It's amazing what a little (alot) or moola can do...

Insane Jester
03-17-2003, 04:54 PM
its only illegal if you mess or alter any codeing within the xbox. theres nothing else they can do apart from dump youre warrenty . no way on this planet especially in the us will ms let modding go out on t.v ever. if techt.v do show this i will gaurantee tech t.v will never run another show ...

BCan
03-20-2003, 08:20 AM
Whilst I agree that MS would put the hard word on Tech TV not to ever run a XBOX modding program, what legal standpoint do MS have to stand on to stop them?

As much as Sony hated the PSX, PSOne and PS2 being mod chipped, it took a very long time for them to react to it. I am sure the PSX was out for about 3 years before they complained, and well over 12 months before they complained about the PS2.

It was our Competition Consumer Comission (A government body) that made the case that Sony was actually being anti-competitive by falsely forcing a form of region coding onto the console in regards to the games.
Our government tried to ban multi-zoned DVD players being sold, that lasted about 6 months before it was thrown away. Or was it the film companies exerting influence? Definitely an anti-competitive stance to stop it, to stop the customer having the choice of buying things from wherever they like.
Why should there be exclusive parts to games only available in certain territories, and stop people from the rest of the world being able to get a copy themselves and play it? It is discriminating on a customer by location, a backhanded slap at the gaming community to say "Sorry, you don't live in mainland USA, so you can't have this special feature with your game"


BTW Corona, that sounds awfully like a contract that is to do with resellers of consoles, and not the owners.......

Remember where most reverse engineered programs come from, Russia, where it is legal to reverse engineer. In fact, it is legal in many countries to be able to reverse engineer for the purposes of compatibility, although I would assume MS would have contracts that sign that away from developers..

canadianboi3
03-20-2003, 02:10 PM
I think that this would be cool. I don't wanna mod my Xbox, I just wanna be able to watch VCD's and listen to MP3's.

Kraft
03-20-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by canadianboi3
I think that this would be cool. I don't wanna mod my Xbox, I just wanna be able to watch VCD's and listen to MP3's.

Get a dreamcast :D

natewebb
03-20-2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Kraft-XBA
Get a dreamcast :D

Does a deamcast have a hard drive to (possibly) store MP3 and videos? Does it have 5.1 dolby decoding? Does it have a wireless remote? Does it have HDTV? Does it play HALO?

If the answer is no, I wouldn't want a dreamcast.

Kraft
03-20-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by natewebb
Does a deamcast have a hard drive to (possibly) store MP3 and videos? Does it have 5.1 dolby decoding? Does it have a wireless remote? Does it have HDTV? Does it play HALO?

If the answer is no, I wouldn't want a dreamcast.

Don't you already have halo? Is a mod chip going to cost you 30 dollars anyways? Are you seroiusly too lazy as to require a wireless remote to open something? Can't you keep movies on CD's like most movies are on? Aren't you interested in having access to a plethora of awesome games that ARENT available for the Xbox?

If the answer is yes, then go for a dreamcast and save yourself the trouble of voiding your xbox warranty and/or screwing up your xbox live service if you have it. The only feasable point is the dolby 5.1.

selowitch
03-20-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by VenoM
like there isnt enough sport channels....those bastages...ive been without the channel for over a year...[/B]

Venom, I love your use of the word "bastages"; it evokes fond memories of the silly but enjoyable film Johnny Dangerously with and Michael Keaton and Joe Piscopo.

-Sam