Vietnam

[Sodacider]

Was the Vietnam war moral? Was the United States wrong for being there?

Parties involved:
North Vietnam, South Vietnam, Vietnamese nationalists, Soviet Union, China, France, United States.

France:
Reason: Maintainence of Colonial power
Abandoned Vietnam during World War II
On defeat of Germany, began harsh oppressive tactics against Vietnamese to maintain control

Vietnam:
Reason: Independent rule
3 million dead
Split 3 ways; Diem's South Vietnam, Nationalist South Vietnam, and Minh's North Vietnam
War lasted 30 years, mostly against French

United States:
Reason: Anti-Communist Containment
58,000 dead
5 million tons of ordnance dropped
10,000 hamlets destroyed
25 million acres of forest in South Vietnam destroyed
11.2 million gallons of Agent Orange dispersed

Communist (Soviet/China):
Reason: Communist Subversion
Massive resources funneled to Minh's North Vietnam
Harshest oppression/intimidation against villagers
Politically blackmailed North Vietnamese leaders

[Sodacider]

Wilfred Owen's 'Dulce Et Decorum Est'
If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin,
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs
Bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Lyndon Johnson
I knew from the start that I was bound to be crucified either way I moved. If I left the woman I really loved- the Great Society- in order to get involved with that ***** of a war on the other side of the world, then I would lose everything at home. All my programs. All my hopes to feed the hungry and shelter the homeless. All my dreams to provide education and medical care to the browns and the blacks and the lame and the poor. But if I left that war and let the Communists take over South Vietnam, then I would be seen as a coward and my nation would be seen as an appeaser, and we would both find it impossible to accomplish anything for anybody anywhere on the entire globe.

Michael Harrington
If there is a technological advance without a social advance, there is, almost automatically, an increase in human misery.

Anonymous General to correspondent Arthur Hadley
And who are the young men we are asking to go into action against such odds? You've met them. You know. They are the best we have. But they are not McNamara's sons, or Bundy's. I doubt they're yours. And they know they're at the end of the pipeline. That no one cares. They know.

Fields of Fire passage (anti war protest)
"How many of you are going to get hurt in Vietnam? I didn't see any of you in Vietnam. I saw dudes, man. Dudes. And truck drivers and coal miners and farmers. I didn't see you. Where were you? Flunking your draft physicals? What do you care if it ends? You won't get hurt. "
He mused feebly, trying to remember the things he had contemplated while driving to the rally. Or maybe piss them off some more. Another putdown, like some day they'll pay. Pay what? It doesn't cost them. Never will cost them. Like some ******* party.
He gripped the mike, staring at them. "Look, what do any of you even know about it, for Christs sake? Ho Chi ****ing Minh. And what the hell has it cost..."
...Goodrich worked his way down the platofrm, engulfed by confused and hostile stares. Many in the crowd were hissing at him. He chuckled to himself. Snake would have loved it, would have grooved on the whole thing. Senator, he would have said, you finally grew some balls.

Marine Pacification of the Vietnamese

Not entirely a military struggle... In a counterinsurgency environment, the people were the key to success, and the III MAF initated sevral programs to win the support of the populace.
In late 1965, the 9th Marines initiated GOLDEN FLEECE operations whereby Marine units protected the villagers rice crop from the guerrillas durinv harvest time. This effort was so successful in denying the VC logistical support that General Walt expanded the program through I Corps.
COUNTY FAIR, another 9th Marines innovation, was a combined US/ARVN cordon and search process aimed at the local guerrillas. Moving into position before dawn, the Marines threw a cordon around a target hamlet to prevent the VC from ecaping or receiving reinforcements. At last light, South Vietnamese troops entered the hamlet, where they took a census, fed the people, provided medical attention and entertainment, and searched the area. Those VC who were not killed or captured were disposed of by the Marines when they fled the hamlet.
The Combined Action Program, which was initiated by the 3rd Battalion, 4th Marines, at Phu Bai, was designed to provide prolonged security for the villagers by preparing the militia-like Popular Forces for local defense. The basic operating unit was a 14-man Marine squad, with a Navy Corpsman which was integrated into a 35-man PF platoon forming a Combined Action Platoon.
The Marines lived in the village, assisting in the military training of the PFs and initating self-help projects for the peasants. These local defense groups were soon able to deny the VC access to rice and recruits from the hamlets and provided the villagers with a life free of Communist terror and intimidation.
By late 1966, the various pacification and civic action programs, shielded by Allied military operations, had extended government influence over 1,690 square miles and 1,000,000 people in I Corps."

[DrunkenSmurf]

Originally posted by Sodacider
Was the Vietnam war moral? Was the United States wrong for being there?

Parties involved:
North Vietnam, South Vietnam, Vietnamese nationalists, Soviet Union, China, France, United States.

France:
Reason: Maintainence of Colonial power
Abandoned Vietnam during World War II
On defeat of Germany, began harsh oppressive tactics against Vietnamese to maintain control

Vietnam:
Reason: Independent rule
3 million dead
Split 3 ways; Diem's South Vietnam, Nationalist South Vietnam, and Minh's North Vietnam
War lasted 30 years, mostly against French

United States:
Reason: Anti-Communist Containment
58,000 dead
5 million tons of ordnance dropped
10,000 hamlets destroyed
25 million acres of forest in South Vietnam destroyed
11.2 million gallons of Agent Orange dispersed

Communist (Soviet/China):
Reason: Communist Subversion
Massive resources funneled to Minh's North Vietnam
Harshest oppression/intimidation against villagers
Politically blackmailed North Vietnamese leaders

Australia, Korea, Thailand, New Zealand, The Phillipines, Taiwan, Spain and Canada had forces there too. I can't rememeber if France and England had forces there or not. Basically the war was a "the free world vs. Communism". It was also a war to stop the spread of Communism in Asia. Was it a moral or necessary war? Nope not one bit, it was a war the socialy, almost destroyed this country. Was the war winnable? More then likely it was, but the wrong people were in charge.

[Sheeyt]

More then likely it was, but the wrong people were in charge.

Couldnt have said it better myself. I think the preception of Vietnam being so negative rest solely on the media. I've read many books about Vietnam, and alot of them say that the media's coverage of Vietnam was aboslutely insane. They actually doctored photos and stories to make our soldiers look like genocidal monsters.

Thank god Nixon was able to end the war and keep a little dignity left in the American Military. It's just to bad that the democrats in the senate oppted to cut all funding to S. Vietnam which lead to a instantanous slaughter to several hundred thousand in the south. Not to mention Pol Pot and the Khamer Rouge's killing fields in Cambodia. A statgering fact is that over half of the Cambodian population was murdered in the rise to communism, and other nations namely us just sat by at let it happen.

[Ford Mustang]

That poem, "Dulce et decorum est" was written based on WW1. I remember reading that about 2 years ago for an English class. It's talking about the chem weapons the Germans used on the allies.
Random bit of knowledge....

This war is definitely not black and white. Had the French acted differently, maybe it wouldn't have happened. I don't think the US should have gotten involved. It's not our job to supress a war for independence from another country. Also, the Vietnamese were looking for something to cling to. When the US and Europe was not there, guess who was? The big red flag. The Commies were the only ones there to help, so they obviously took it.

What suprises me the most about Korea and Vietnam is that the Soviets and Chinese were actively and directly fighting the US. Not only were they supplying the other Commies, but they actually had soldiers and fighter pilots fighting us. And nothing was done. It just seems a shame to me. :confused:

[Sodacider]

I love that poem. :)

remember, the Communists were only helping one side in Vietnam, not the Vietnamese people as a whole. They were helping a rebellious faction, and were using harsh intimidation of the villagers to force new recruits. They also supported guerrillas who were trained to raid rice crops from hamlets to feed the NVA and VC.

They aren't any more morally correct thany ANYONE in the war. Maybe even less so.

[Ford Mustang]

Let's also remember that the Commies were always looking for an opportunity to take a stab at the US and get away with it. Those sneaky Commies. :cuss: I still can't believe some of the **** that they got away with. :confused:

[Sheeyt]

Got away with? Heck China still gets away with genocide everyday. China's humanity care of their citizens is just about none existant.

[Ford Mustang]

True, but there's nothing that we as a country are willing to do about it, I guess. Communism in China will eventually collapse upon itself.