Mexican Immigrants- Learn English?

[Sodacider]

There is a fairly large movement that pushes a belief that it is discrimination to force English onto immigrants.

First, here's a quick related but side point. I think it was wrong for Jews to be put in ghettos throughout much of european history, such as those in Venice. I think it's a bit of an issue, though, because they were almost a good thing- the Jewish culture in many cases was preserved (well, with that tiny exception of pogroms, holocaust, etc).

Anyway, here's the issue, in my eyes. Spanish-speaking immigrants I have NO problem with. In fact, I'm all for immigration on almost every level. I really believe in it, and I think it's hypocritical for us as a nation to be against it (this goes beyond political lines- both republicans and democrats are on some levels against immigration at all costs).

But what about learning English?

Yes. They have to learn english. This only dawned on me just a few hours ago, because I'm so much in support of the Hispanic culture and believe in maintaining their cultural identity.

Why? Because we are doing them no favor by sticking them in a linguistic ghetto, no better than the physical ghettos Jews were placed in.
We must let them phase Spanish out (though we should assimilate as much of their language as possible into english), and we must ensure they speak proper english. Not only them, but anyone who is not speaking proper english.

The reasoning behind this is citizenship. I believe very strongly in being a citizen in the U.S., being a citizen in NAFTA, and being a cosmopolitan citizen. I do believe in national boundaries, and almost as much I believe in linguistic boundaries- the English-speaking nations of the world are very much divided from the Chinese speaking, French speaking, Arab speaking nations of the world- and, in my opinion, mostly just by language.

A person cannot be a citizen in the U.S. if they don't speak English. I'm not saying they can't have the card, they can't have the title, but what I'm saying is they can't be a citizen in a deeper sense. The people who debate about immigrants speak in English- only rarely do they speak in Spanish. The people who set and make policy in the U.S. speak English. The people who change the societal landscape and challenge the law are all English speakers.

On a superficial level, yes, a Spanish speaker can get by. In an ideal world, a person with limited English skills would be equal with a Senator from Virginia or another fairly wealthy state. However, the reality is, there is a certain very prescriptive dialect in the U.S. in which, if you don't speak it, you will not be taken seriously. It is a business and political dialect, and it's the dialect you will hear when you turn on CNN or FOXNews at night.

The world is not ideal, and unfortunately, it won't become ideal because we wish it to be so. I believe we are doing a disservice to anyone by not teaching them standard prescriptive English, because we are isolating them from the government, keeping them from advancing in the business and political world, and thus, essentially, placing them in a modern ghetto.

And I believe that it is far more dangerous and far less equal to, in the name of 'equality' and 'multiculturalism,' deprive these perfectly intelligent people and citizens of the United States from getting an education in the language that will help them succeed. If we follow current, backwards thinking to it's fullest extent, we will see a future where Hispanics are fully deprived and depraved of any sort of equality.



I apologize for length.

[DemonLoki]

Duh. Of cousre immigrants should learn the official language. I see alot of hispanic immigrants in the US who rely on 5 year old children to translate for them, when these people have been in the US for several years already, that is pathetic. Not necesarily that they havent learned, maybe the oppritunity isn't there for them to have learned. Speaking a different language truely seperates them from society to a degree. Spanish isn't exactly a good part of the Central American culture anyway, would you want maintain the language of a society who raped, robbed, and killed many of your ancestors? English is the world language anyway (even space aliens speak it, starwars startrek ect...)

[Anthony4sho]

Ask yourself this question: Are we willing to learn english?

I agree that language is what seperates and divides the world. I disagree though with your citizenship theory or w/e. Just because they do not speak the country's language does not mean they are any less a citizen then the next man or woman, feel me? Yes, the law makers and the people who run this country speak english. Look around you though. How long do you think that is going to last?

On a superficial level, yes, a Spanish speaker can get by. In an ideal world, a person with limited English skills would be equal with a Senator from Virginia or another fairly wealthy state. However, the reality is, there is a certain very prescriptive dialect in the U.S. in which, if you don't speak it, you will not be taken seriously. It is a business and political dialect, and it's the dialect you will hear when you turn on CNN or FOXNews at night.

I could not agree with you more. But once again, how long do you think that is going to last? Also, can you elaborate a little bit more on that second sentence of the above paragraph. I did not understand what you ment.:confused:

The world is not ideal, and unfortunately, it won't become ideal because we wish it to be so. I believe we are doing a disservice to anyone by not teaching them standard prescriptive English, because we are isolating them from the government, keeping them from advancing in the business and political world, and thus, essentially, placing them in a modern ghetto.

You can bring a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. We are not isolating them from the government. The government is isloating themselves from us. The majority of the government could care less as long they get their paychecks. They are too worried about which 3rd world country they get to blow up next. The government does not want us to advance. They like to have us plumb dumb.

And I believe that it is far more dangerous and far less equal to, in the name of 'equality' and 'multiculturalism,' deprive these perfectly intelligent people and citizens of the United States from getting an education in the language that will help them succeed. If we follow current, backwards thinking to it's fullest extent, we will see a future where Hispanics are fully deprived and depraved of any sort of equality.

Amen, brotha. Unfortunately, we are already deprived of any sort of "equality". Also, its almost the opposite here in Miami. Jobs are starting to hire only people who are fluent in spanish or have it as their first language. I would bet money that jobs in other cities with high hispanic populations like New York and L.A. are also beginning this trend. Once again, take a good look around you. Very soon there is going to be La Carreta's on every corner, no joke. Hispanics are creeping on the come up.
One more thing. I did not mean to disrespect or insult you even though I might have come off that way. Peace.

[Sodacider]

A "prescriptive dialect," which I think is what confused you (in that second line), is a dialect that is enforced though seemingly illogical (it serves a purpose as opposed to serving the language).

What I'm referring to, specifically, is english grammar taught in schools. Remember all those times you were told not to say 'aint,' or to say I instead of me, or who and whom, etc.
Well, the thing is, you believing it's who or whome or what not, the reason they teach you that is because it's NOT natural in the language. What you learn at school is prescriptive- it's fixing true grammar to match irregular and illogical societal grammar.

It's hard to explain, but I bet anyone could understand this so I'll try to explain it...
Basically, when you first learn language, you learn a perfect version of it. You are very consistent in that language- worked is proper, but so is 'goed' (to go). Of course, your elementary school teacher will correct you when you say 'goed,' but the truth is, your grammar is more perfect than what your being taught.

The reason we have prescriptive grammar is for a few purposes. First, in the 16th-19th century, people believed the Roman and Greek civilizations were the pinnacle of humanity (in many ways they were prior to that time), so they tried to conform all languages to Latin, including english. That's why we have seemingly illogical rules such as word placement (though its not illogical to you now, it was when you first learned langauge).
Another reason is this- social control. English is used as a societal bearing and is spread across literally hundreds of millions of speakers worldwide. Thus, the language can't be allowed to mutate as it naturally would. Even though the language has obvious things it should be doing, such as irregular verbs should become regular (again, worked and goed should both be proper english), the language that is prescribed to you goes against that in order to maintain an ability to speak to everyone.

As for dialect, that's where this all ties in. Prescriptive dialects and grammar, taught by schools, have become a means of stratefying the culture (an education-based class system, which we do have). So the most proper English, meaning, what society sees as the most educated english, is the only english that is considered (for lack of a better term) aristocratic. That is why you will see anyone in public life, be it in the news, in business, or in politics, they all speak a very specific prescriptive dialect.


Again, long answer, but I really think anyone can understand this stuff. I've never been a fan of thinking the average person is dumb, I guess.

[Sodacider]

Just because they do not speak the country's language does not mean they are any less a citizen then the next man or woman, feel me?

I absolutely believe your right. That's exactly why we can't ghettoize them by having two languages. The problem I was pointing out is not that they should be equal citizens or aren't because they don't speak english, it's that they are being denied the rights of citizenship because they don't speak English. It's not fair, but it's reality, and I know it wouldn't be true in an idealistic world, but we don't live in an idealistic world.

[StudioAlex]

Mexican immigrants should learn english because without it, the best they are going to do is wash dishes. Their isn't a bigger hurdle to success than not speaking the language that the money flows in. I'm not so worried, however. The previous huge movements of immigrants didn't result in more than one national language, why would it be different now. The children of these immigrants who can't speak english, will speak english. No different from the italian and german immigrants from a hundred years ago.