in defense of europe

[Sodacider]

western europe is by far one of the most anti-american bastions in the world, surpassing even the middle east as far as polls go.

yet... last I checked, something like 65% of the people in france have "some issue with current U.S. policy."

and it struck me that that means 35% don't have issue with current U.S. policy. 1 in 3 french actually ... *gasp*... support us all the way.

weird, huh?

[Sheeyt]

Yea but if asked I'm sure the other 35% could muster up some reason to hate us.

[Ford Mustang]

I'm sick and tired of the stupid ass media making it look like the entire world hates the USA. It's freaking rediculous, and what's even worse is that people actually believe that crap. I hate the media so much.

[Snake Eyez]

They may hate the US, but that doesn't stop them from accepting our money, aid or protection. Funny how that works out.

[Sheeyt]

The entire world doesn't hate us. Just France, Germany and Russia....Maybe China too, oh and Cuba, all the Arab countries... Oh heck I give up.

[Slowride]

japan likes us!

[Koopa]

japan likes us!

because we buy their toys *goes to play gameboy*
:cheers:

[tsrdawg]

I believe foreign countries dislike the leaders of this country...Many folks abroad know that us ordinary people have little to no influence in public policy...Their perceptions arent necessarily our realities...

P.S. I d like to thank the guy who keeps giving me bad reputation points whenever he disagrees with my posts(I know who you are)...I m so impressed with your maturity and fortitude...

[Caesar SYN]

I honestly... DONT CARE... I treat France kinda like that relative you have that you must endure.. until they get themselves into enough trouble they cant get out of (like that relative getting drunk or soemthing) and we gotta bail them out....

[DemonLoki]

I honestly... DONT CARE... I treat France kinda like that relative you have that you must endure.. until they get themselves into enough trouble they cant get out of (like that relative getting drunk or soemthing) and we gotta bail them out....

And they dont shower, like my drunk uncle! Stinky Frenchmen.

[Duke]

I was recently over there. Only made it to a few countries, but talked to a lot of people from everywhere.

Honestly, expected a much colder reception than trips past, but people were just as friendly. I'd say it was about 50-50 on their opinion of us. Politics came up often especially as the Saddam capture happened while I was there.

I found just as many people more in line w/ Bush's viewpoints as I did anti.

Those of you who like to make sweeping generalizations about them, are just as bad as those of them who do us. Yet, in all my conversations, not one of them cared what we thought about their viewpoints, yet a lot of you seem to have hangups on what "they" think of us.

[Caesar SYN]

I was recently over there. Only made it to a few countries, but talked to a lot of people from everywhere.

Honestly, expected a much colder reception than trips past, but people were just as friendly. I'd say it was about 50-50 on their opinion of us. Politics came up often especially as the Saddam capture happened while I was there.

I found just as many people more in line w/ Bush's viewpoints as I did anti.

Those of you who like to make sweeping generalizations about them, are just as bad as those of them who do us. Yet, in all my conversations, not one of them cared what we thought about their viewpoints, yet a lot of you seem to have hangups on what "they" think of us.


...sorry but I dont see it that way... politically they worked against us... they tried to become this big alternative to the US... and they did it at a time when we are trying to secure ourselves and the rest of the world... WE WERE BETRAYED BY FRANCE POLITICALLY!! I see it no other way... I listened but now I grow weary of dealing with them and enduring them... thanks for not letting my F-111s fly over your air space when we bombed Libya, thanks for ACTIVELY CAMPAIGNING AGAINST US IN THE WORLD ARENA... you know they could have just sat by.. but they took a view point of supporting a SWORN ENEMY of the US (SADDAM) and I cannot accept that... That is the ultimate betrayal to me... AND I WILL NEVER FORGET NOR FORGIVE THAT!!

[Duke]

See it what way? The point I was trying to make is that plenty of people around here try to insult them as a people.

Just as Bush is not indicative of all Americans, neither are their leaders an absolute litmus test on all Europeans.

You're disagreeing w/ something I didn't say.

[Sodacider]

duke, what country did you visit? england is obviously going to be very different than france and germany. same with italy, whose population is still very pro-US.

[Duke]

On this last trip, I was in England, Ireland, Spain.

But I was talking to people from a lot more countries than that. In fact, in spain, at least two days were hanging out w/ an almost all french crowd. And it was the same ratio I spoke of before.

In fact, the English were the most anti-american gov't of the whole lot. Spanish people seemed to be the most pro, even though the demographics we read don't suggest that.

-edit- add amsterdam, but if there was any political discussion there, it's lost to the ages.

[sojourner]

I was recently over there. Only made it to a few countries, but talked to a lot of people from everywhere.

Honestly, expected a much colder reception than trips past, but people were just as friendly. I'd say it was about 50-50 on their opinion of us. Politics came up often especially as the Saddam capture happened while I was there.

I found just as many people more in line w/ Bush's viewpoints as I did anti.

Those of you who like to make sweeping generalizations about them, are just as bad as those of them who do us. Yet, in all my conversations, not one of them cared what we thought about their viewpoints, yet a lot of you seem to have hangups on what "they" think of us.

Your spot on in your post, its got nothing to do with hating the US, its US policy thats the sticking point. If the French hated the US then they would not have any troops in Afghanistan, but they do.

[Sheeyt]

Yea lets not forget all those "nice" French people that went to that WW2 graveyard in France and destroyed and desicrated British WW2 soldiers graves, the same soldiers that fought for France's freedom. I bet they are really nice aside from that.

[Duke]

Personally, I won't forget all the people who invited me and my friends into their homes, bought us countless drinks, and praised everything the US had done when I was there on the 50th anniversary.

[Slowride]

P.S. I d like to thank the guy who keeps giving me bad reputation points whenever he disagrees with my posts(I know who you are)...I m so impressed with your maturity and fortitude...

I got the same problem. Someone keeps giving me bad rep say something along the lines of "Look i'm from texas i love george bush" or "welcome to texas vote george bush." Can't let them get to you, or you might become just as sad and pathetic as they seem to be.

[sojourner]

Yea lets not forget all those "nice" French people that went to that WW2 graveyard in France and destroyed and desicrated British WW2 soldiers graves, the same soldiers that fought for France's freedom. I bet they are really nice aside from that.

But are they not the minority? as are the Abu Ghraib offenders, do they're actions reflect the majority of French? Possibly not. The thread was titled "In defence of Europe" but only five countries from the EU have been mentioned, with the emphasis on France as being "Europe" the most attacked...c'mon man, look beyond the trees.

[Sheeyt]

I often wonder if they are a minority or not. If I'm not wrong a member of the French government actually compared George Bush to Hitler. They may be a minority but their voices are being heard more then the majority which makes it easy for me to generalize.

As far as the negative reps go, I've disabled that feature for the very reason TSR is complaining about. Immature children misusing the feature. Besides I'm not vain enough to care about my "rep"

[CRAYMAN]

I was recently over there. Only made it to a few countries, but talked to a lot of people from everywhere.

Yet, in all my conversations, not one of them cared what we thought about their viewpoints, yet a lot of you seem to have hangups on what "they" think of us.

Actually, most could've cared less, but it's a tactic repeatedly used by anti-Bush political hacks to criticize the President. So this has brought it to our attention, when we really should not care what a few countries are saying.
Sure, France and Germany betrayed us but, the US actually had a majority of support from the nations of the world.

[xboxman_1]

They may hate the US, but that doesn't stop them from accepting our money, aid or protection. Funny how that works out.

For shizzle, totally agree with this.

[sojourner]

...
Sure, France and Germany betrayed us but, the US actually had a majority of support from the nations of the world.

What do you mean betrayed? They didn't agree with you so that equates betrayal? gimme a break! If a country doesn't agree with your policies then they're labled a traitor? that doesn't seem very democractally inspired....does it?

[Sheeyt]

No but, how about France's corruption within the "Oil for Palaces" program. I think that would constitute betrayal.

[CRAYMAN]

What do you mean betrayed? They didn't agree with you so that equates betrayal? gimme a break! If a country doesn't agree with your policies then they're labled a traitor? that doesn't seem very democractally inspired....does it?


They agreed to offer their support, but when it came time to vote they backed out(changed their vote).

[sojourner]

They agreed to offer their support, but when it came time to vote they backed out(changed their vote).

So on that rational then they could accuse US/UK and respective partners of going maverick and betraying the intenational community by going it alone. Changing your mind on wether to support an action or not is the privilege of working under a democratic structure. Because a country doesn't want to support US actions or policy, it doesn't make them a betrayer. There are more voices to listen to than just the US opinion.

[CRAYMAN]

So on that rational then they could accuse US/UK and respective partners of going maverick and betraying the intenational community by going it alone. Changing your mind on wether to support an action or not is the privilege of working under a democratic structure. Because a country doesn't want to support US actions or policy, it doesn't make them a betrayer. There are more voices to listen to than just the US opinion.

WRONG! More nations supported the Iraq invasion than didn't.
Also, your analogy is poorly constructed.
The point is that they were on our side and then at the last minute decided to turn.
This was found to be primarily due to their complicitness in the fleecing of the "Oil for Food" program that they didn't want exposed.
I'm not going to correct the rest. :bang:

[sojourner]

WRONG! More nations supported the Iraq invasion than didn't.
Also, your analogy is poorly constructed.
The point is that they were on our side and then at the last minute decided to turn.
This was found to be primarily due to their complicitness in the fleecing of the "Oil for Food" program that they didn't want exposed.
I'm not going to correct the rest. :bang:

More nations? get a grip, show me the undeniable majority of world Leaders that voted for the war, take a look at the situation just now and tell me we're you see the the elite world leaders in agreement over this war in Iraq? You mention "oil for food" like its some kind of new idea of corrupt meetings between countries. This is just what goes on all the time between all nations, people abuse their power and pull their nation down with them.

Every country involved in the whole Iraq scenario from way back has been doing deals with them so there's no real angel nation here. :)

[Sheeyt]

Actually SoJourner when the U.N. unanimously passed 1441 that was the authorization for use of force if Saddam didn't compile. They may have not supported it, dedicated troops or anything like that but every single nation of the UN voted unanimously for 1441.

I love how folks like you marginalize the nations that are helping us simply because they aren't France, Germany or Russia. Australia, Japan, Italy, Poland, Britain, Spain (until the spineless socialists took over) all gave troops, while countless other countries gave money and political support. Does that mean those countries aren't worth mentioning because they aren't France, Germany and Russia? It's obvious now why France and Russia fought tooth and nail in opposition, they where affraid we would find about their being in Saddam's back pocket through the corrupt oil for food program.

I'm sure the leaders of Poland, Britian, Italy, Australia, Japan all consider themselves "elite" leaders, but that doesn't mean anything to you.

[TOTTEN]

japan likes us!
i think they hate us they might just still have a grudge from WWII

[sojourner]

Actually SoJourner when the U.N. unanimously passed 1441 that was the authorization for use of force if Saddam didn't compile. They may have not supported it, dedicated troops or anything like that but every single nation of the UN voted unanimously for 1441.

I love how folks like you marginalize the nations that are helping us simply because they aren't France, Germany or Russia. Australia, Japan, Italy, Poland, Britain, Spain (until the spineless socialists took over) all gave troops, while countless other countries gave money and political support. Does that mean those countries aren't worth mentioning because they aren't France, Germany and Russia? It's obvious now why France and Russia fought tooth and nail in opposition, they where affraid we would find about their being in Saddam's back pocket through the corrupt oil for food program.

I'm sure the leaders of Poland, Britian, Italy, Australia, Japan all consider themselves "elite" leaders, but that doesn't mean anything to you.

Actually I love how folks like you seem to conveniently overlook the fact that the US/UK had Saddam in their respective back pockets when it suited them. Was it not a money spinner when selling arms to him in his conflict with Iran? How do you think Saddam paid for his end? I suppose thats ok?


I'm not marginalising anyone. the real players are the G8 and theres no majority of vote there. Do you know who the G8 are? because they're not in full agreement.
The constant "we hate France" attitude is disturbing, you seem to forget that France has troops in Afghanistan so they obviously agree with some US policy, just not enough for your liking. It's time the mud slinging stopped and time to mend bridges.

You bring up the UN now after ripping into them for being useless in past threads, are you now agreeing with them? Yes 1441 was agreed on but then that went askew when when war was implemented against UN wishes at that jucture.

When looking for support in times of war its only the done thing to get the major economic powers on board, or am I way off base here?

[Sheeyt]

I will never support the UN, they are and always have been a useless entity. If they enforced their own resolutions we wouldn't even be talking about this. But since they turned a blind eye to the corrupt dictators of the world, the same people they where formed to fight against we have to take care of business.

Going back to the Saddam thing, at the time he was the lesser of the two evil's. Similar to the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan against the Soviets. We funded Saddam because it was in our best interest, not because we wanted to. We had already witnessed what the crazies in Iran where capable of. Yes we funded Saddam, and how does he repay us by invading another country, by spitting in our face. Just like we aided Bin Laden to rid to Soviets he repays the same way. Well friends don't stay friends forever in this world. Saddam didn't want to play by the rules anymore, so be it.

If someone needs to mend bridges, it's the French. They are the one's that have held a grudge since WW2.

[CRAYMAN]

More nations? get a grip, show me the undeniable majority of world Leaders that voted for the war, take a look at the situation just now and tell me we're you see the the elite world leaders in agreement over this war in Iraq? You mention "oil for food" like its some kind of new idea of corrupt meetings between countries. This is just what goes on all the time between all nations, people abuse their power and pull their nation down with them.

Every country involved in the whole Iraq scenario from way back has been doing deals with them so there's no real angel nation here. :)

Again, WRONG. You keep parsing your words. I tell you the majority of nations/votes supports the war. So you respond with, "show me the UNDENIABLE majority." No, I'll show you the MAJORITY.

And as for the comment, "This is just what goes on all the time between all nations..."
That is at best, the lamest excuse and at worst, the stupidest.
When you fleece the Oil for Food program, you're responsible for stealing food from starving women, men and children.
Excusing it by saying, "well everybody's doing it!" is sad.

[sojourner]

Again, WRONG. You keep parsing your words. I tell you the majority of nations/votes supports the war. So you respond with, "show me the UNDENIABLE majority." No, I'll show you the MAJORITY.

And as for the comment, "This is just what goes on all the time between all nations..."
That is at best, the lamest excuse and at worst, the stupidest.
When you fleece the Oil for Food program, you're responsible for stealing food from starving women, men and children.
Excusing it by saying, "well everybody's doing it!" is sad.

Where did I mention pray tell that I was excusing it? Its just a fact. Don't try and put words in my mouth and make out I'm stupid, also don't get emotive with the "starving kids" rhetoric that wont wash. The US has had its fair share of dodgy deals as I mentioned earlier, would you like me to mention a few for you?

[CRAYMAN]

Where did I mention pray tell that I was excusing it? Its just a fact. Don't try and put words in my mouth and make out I'm stupid, also don't get emotive with the "starving kids" rhetoric that wont wash. The US has had its fair share of dodgy deals as I mentioned earlier, would you like me to mention a few for you?

By saying everybody's doing it, you're excusing it.
Here's your quote, "Every country involved in the whole Iraq scenario from way back has been doing deals with them so there's no real angel nation here."
Which is patently FALSE.

Also, I'm not making out you're stupid...

[sojourner]

By saying everybody's doing it, you're excusing it.
Here's your quote, "Every country involved in the whole Iraq scenario from way back has been doing deals with them so there's no real angel nation here."
Which is patently FALSE.

Also, I'm not making out you're stupid...

Thats a strange way of seeing things. I was alluding to the fact that in Iraqs history there has always been interference from external forces. The Brits with their involvement right from their empire days, the US with supplying weapons to Saddam in the Iran/Iraq war. As I asked before, how do you think he paid for those weapons? He paid for them with his countrys oil money! When that theatre of operation was on the go there were very few people concerned about "starving kids" etc.

What I meant by the "angel nation" remark was that no country involved with Iraq can cast a stone in the direction of France because they all have had a finger in the pie, "people in glass houses.." and all that. It's preposterous for even the likes of the US to rip into France when it has done dodgy deals of a similar ilk.

Can I cast your mind back to the Iran/contra debacle, that was just another dodgy deal that went tits up for the US, ending in a total mess. I can still see Ollie North sitting at the table being grilled on tv. The point Ive tried to make is that its wrong to point the finger at France when the US have been guilty of the same kind of covert dealings.

But I guess I'm patently wrong there too.

[CRAYMAN]

Thats a strange way of seeing things. I was alluding to the fact that in...
Anyone who can read knows what you were saying/alluding. It's the same argument from people who say that you can't complain about the brutal murder of Nick Berg, because of Abhu Graib.
There is NO moral equivalence.
Those in prison were scum. Nick Berg was a noble person. The prisoners were humiliated. Nick Berg was brutally murdered.

There is a difference between supplying arms to Freedom Fighters and defying UN sanctions that were designed to get food to starving Iraqi's.

[thatdude222]

I took a trip to france with my family a few days into the invasion of iraq...........








results- everyone was nice. nicer than usuall, we were suprised. i met 2 smelly people, the rest were fine. thats such a BS sterotype