Linux on XBOX (legally)

[jschelm]

Originally posted by Dre


I read that already and its a different issue altogether. Its a speculation that MS will not allow modded Xbox's on Xbox live and does not discuss the legality of the modchip.

I'd like that because I'm still not convinced its illegal although you do make a good argument. And it is just that... an argument. So was my opinion though and I don't deny its a 2 sided blade but I think the whole illegal issue has been polluted with internet rumors.

It took me a little while, but I knew it was out there.

V.C.1. Protecting copyright protection systems: 17 U.S.C. § 1201

Subject to a litany of exceptions, 17 U.S.C. § 1201 addresses
circumvention of technological measures intended to protect copyrighted works. To "circumvent a technological measure" means to "descramble a scrambled work,
17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(3)(A). Specifically, this provision
places a blanket prohibition on "circumvent[ing] a technological measure that
effectively controls access to a work protected under" copyright law. Congress
delayed implementation of this provision until October 28, 2000, to give the
Librarian of Congress the opportunity to define a class of works deemed to fall
outside the prohibition, a definition that is to be revisited every three years.
Moreover, Congress provided numerous statutory exceptions, which cover a wide
range of areas including: exempting libraries, law enforcement and intelligence
activities; reverse engineering; encryption research; preventing access of minors
to Internet material; accessing personally identifying information; and security
testing. See 17 §§ 1201(d)-(j). Therefore prosecutors should
review all of the possible exceptions as well as the determinations of the
Librarian of Congress before bringing a case.

In addition to prohibiting simple acts of circumvention, Congress also
prohibited the trafficking in circumvention technology. For instance, Congress
prohibited trafficking in product or technology that is primarily produced (or
has limited alternative commercial uses) or is marketed either to circumvent "a
technological measure that effectively controls access" to copyrighted works,
17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(2). Civil litigation has already been brought under this
provision. Universal City Studios, Inc. v. Reimerdes, No. 00 Civ. 0277
LAK, 2000 WL 1160678 (S.D.N.Y. August 17, 2000) (finding violation of statute for
posting program on the Internet to circumvent technology for encrypting
copyrighted works in DVD format and ordering injunctive and declaratory relief).
In addition, Congress prohibited trafficking in a product or technology that is
primarily produced to circumvent "protection afforded by a technological measure"
that "effectively protects" the rights of a copyright owner,
17 U.S.C. § 1201(b)(1). These provisions are subject to all of the myriad
exceptions mentioned above, except for the delay of implementation and the
exemption of specific works relating to determinations of the Librarian of
Congress.

Similar to the other prohibitions on trafficking in circumvention
technologies, Congress established prohibitions on trafficking in certain analog
video equipment and products that do not comply with "automatic gain control copy
control technology" or "colorstripe copy control technology."
17 U.S.C. § 1201(k)(1). Those technologies are not to be used to prevent or
limit consumer copying, except in specific circumstances.
17 U.S.C. § 1201(k)(2). Many of the operative terms utilized in 1201(k) have
been defined in 1201(k)(4)(E) as having, "the meanings that are commonly
understood in the consumer electronics and motion picture industries" as of 1998.

[Xmun]

Originally posted by Dre


1 word. Misinformed. If the software was written WITHOUT an Xbox dev kit, it is totally legal. Read the ToA and maybe do a little www.google.com search next time.

Any program written and distributed to use MS proprietary hardware/software is required by law to pay licencing fees to do so as well as have MS approval for distribution of software made in any form.

While you could make it legally, the minute you began distributing it to others in any form without MS approval is where you fall into the "illegal" category.

NO XBOX SOFTWARE PRODUCT(S) MAY BE PUBLISHED, OR DISTRIBUTED TO END USERS, EXCEPT BY A LICENSED PUBLISHER PURSUANT TO AN XBOX DEVELOPMENT KIT AND XBOX PUBLISHER LICENSE AGREEMENT EXECUTED BY MICROSOFT

http://www.xbox.com/dev/contentproviders.htm

jschelm covered the other bit quite nicely in his previous post.

[Dre]

Originally posted by jschelm


It took me a little while, but I knew it was out there.

V.C.1. Protecting copyright protection systems: 17 U.S.C. § 1201

Subject to a litany of exceptions, 17 U.S.C. § 1201 addresses
circumvention of technological measures intended to protect copyrighted works. To "circumvent a technological measure" means to "descramble a scrambled work,
17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(3)(A). Specifically, this provision
places a blanket prohibition on "circumvent[ing] a technological measure that
effectively controls access to a work protected under" copyright law. Congress
delayed implementation of this provision until October 28, 2000, to give the
Librarian of Congress the opportunity to define a class of works deemed to fall
outside the prohibition, a definition that is to be revisited every three years.
Moreover, Congress provided numerous statutory exceptions, which cover a wide
range of areas including: exempting libraries, law enforcement and intelligence
activities; reverse engineering; encryption research; preventing access of minors
to Internet material; accessing personally identifying information; and security
testing. See 17 §§ 1201(d)-(j). Therefore prosecutors should
review all of the possible exceptions as well as the determinations of the
Librarian of Congress before bringing a case.

In addition to prohibiting simple acts of circumvention, Congress also
prohibited the trafficking in circumvention technology. For instance, Congress
prohibited trafficking in product or technology that is primarily produced (or
has limited alternative commercial uses) or is marketed either to circumvent "a
technological measure that effectively controls access" to copyrighted works,
17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(2). Civil litigation has already been brought under this
provision. Universal City Studios, Inc. v. Reimerdes, No. 00 Civ. 0277
LAK, 2000 WL 1160678 (S.D.N.Y. August 17, 2000) (finding violation of statute for
posting program on the Internet to circumvent technology for encrypting
copyrighted works in DVD format and ordering injunctive and declaratory relief).
In addition, Congress prohibited trafficking in a product or technology that is
primarily produced to circumvent "protection afforded by a technological measure"
that "effectively protects" the rights of a copyright owner,
17 U.S.C. § 1201(b)(1). These provisions are subject to all of the myriad
exceptions mentioned above, except for the delay of implementation and the
exemption of specific works relating to determinations of the Librarian of
Congress.

Similar to the other prohibitions on trafficking in circumvention
technologies, Congress established prohibitions on trafficking in certain analog
video equipment and products that do not comply with "automatic gain control copy
control technology" or "colorstripe copy control technology."
17 U.S.C. § 1201(k)(1). Those technologies are not to be used to prevent or
limit consumer copying, except in specific circumstances.
17 U.S.C. § 1201(k)(2). Many of the operative terms utilized in 1201(k) have
been defined in 1201(k)(4)(E) as having, "the meanings that are commonly
understood in the consumer electronics and motion picture industries" as of 1998.

Thanks bro. I'm an engineer (well.. in 4 months anyways..) not a lawyer, so that was hard to read

The one thing I'm unsure of its meaning and hopefully you can help is the stuff I italicized in my quote of your thread.

[Dre]

This is from the Linux Xbox webpage:

http://xbox-linux.sourceforge.net/faq.php

The DMCA forbids circumventing copy protection, but this is not our goal. We develop an alternative operating system for the Xbox gaming console. A side product could be the ability to run unsigned code, but this alone does not make it possible to play pirated copies of games. Nevertheless, if you live inside the USA or another country with a similar legislation, and you work on Xbox hacking rather than on Linux developing, you can of course join the project anonymously.

[Dre]

Originally posted by Dre
This is from the Linux Xbox webpage:

http://xbox-linux.sourceforge.net/faq.php

The DMCA forbids circumventing copy protection, but this is not our goal. We develop an alternative operating system for the Xbox gaming console. A side product could be the ability to run unsigned code, but this alone does not make it possible to play pirated copies of games. Nevertheless, if you live inside the USA or another country with a similar legislation, and you work on Xbox hacking rather than on Linux developing, you can of course join the project anonymously.

And at the bottom of the page...

Everything done on this project is for the sole purpose of writing interoperable software under Sect. 1201 (f) Reverse Engineering exception of the DMCA

[Xmun]

Originally posted by Dre
This is from the Linux Xbox webpage:

http://xbox-linux.sourceforge.net/faq.php

The DMCA forbids circumventing copy protection, but this is not our goal. We develop an alternative operating system for the Xbox gaming console. A side product could be the ability to run unsigned code, but this alone does not make it possible to play pirated copies of games. Nevertheless, if you live inside the USA or another country with a similar legislation, and you work on Xbox hacking rather than on Linux developing, you can of course join the project anonymously.

Completely nullified by:

NO XBOX SOFTWARE PRODUCT(S) MAY BE PUBLISHED, OR DISTRIBUTED TO END USERS, EXCEPT BY A LICENSED PUBLISHER PURSUANT TO AN XBOX DEVELOPMENT KIT AND XBOX PUBLISHER LICENSE AGREEMENT EXECUTED BY MICROSOFT

http://www.xbox.com/dev/contentproviders.htm

Notice the ".....EXCEPT BY A LICENSED PUBLISHER PURSUANT TO AN XBOX DEVELOPMENT KIT AND XBOX PUBLISHER LICENSE AGREEMENT EXECUTED BY MICROSOFT..." part?

If it's not made with an MS Dev kit and MS approval it isn't legal, hence "illegal".

End of story.

The whole "anonymous hacking" membership doesn't bode well for their sincerity either.

Crating the software isn't the issue, the adoption of it is.

[jschelm]

Originally posted by Dre


Thanks bro. I'm an engineer (well.. in 4 months anyways..) not a lawyer, so that was hard to read

The one thing I'm unsure of its meaning and hopefully you can help is the stuff I italicized in my quote of your thread.

Yea, I am an engineer too (electrical), but I have had a class that briefly touched on this kind of stuff. The best that I can tell is that you are safe if you are working on encryption research, which I would have to guess means some type of authorized reseearch, not just if you get caught telling the judge. "Well I have a new research project dealing with encryption" As far as the reverse engineering goes, I am not sure where they draw the line there. I know that reverse engineering with the intent of learning how a competitor does stuff is common practice, but reverse engineering for the intent of copying all or part of something can get you in trouble.

[Dre]

Originally posted by Xmun


Completely nullified by:



http://www.xbox.com/dev/contentproviders.htm

Notice the ".....EXCEPT BY A LICENSED PUBLISHER PURSUANT TO AN XBOX DEVELOPMENT KIT AND XBOX PUBLISHER LICENSE AGREEMENT EXECUTED BY MICROSOFT..." part?

Yes, but it could be argued that the linux community is neither publishing nor distributing the software they create. People can download the software off a mirror or something but you'll never see this software in a store or where profit is to be made.

[Xmun]

Originally posted by Dre


Yes, but it could be argued that the linux community is neither publishing nor distributing the software they create. People can download the software off a mirror or something but you'll never see this software in a store or where profit is to be made.

D'wee?

How could they argue it isn't their intention when their specific mission statements promise exactly that?

They even refer to their "OS" as a "product"

Also how is putting it up for mass public consumption is not considered distribution in your mind?

And once again it was created for Xbox WITHOUT PERMISSION OR A DEV KIT which is clearly stated is ILLEGAL.

[jschelm]

Dre, you do have a point, and it is something that I have never really said that I disagree with, because I am not sure. The software itself may be totally legal to write on your own (XMun has shown that it can't be distributed whether for profit or not) or to own, since MS does not specifically say that it is illegal to use, just to distribute.

The one thing the faq does not say is that the DMEA is the international agreement. It is VERY possible (read as most likely the case) that there will be laws in each country which may be more strict.

The other thing, and the original point of my argument, is that the Linux community is trying to use the word legal in the same sentance as modded XBox, which is not possible.

[Xmun]

Originally posted by jschelm
Dre, you do have a point, and it is something that I have never really said that I disagree with, because I am not sure. The software itself may be totally legal to write on your own (XMun has shown that it can't be distributed whether for profit or not) or to own, since MS does not specifically say that it is illegal to use, just to distribute.

No it goes further than distribution.

I also pointed out that unless it's made with an Xbox Dev kit, it is not infact legal.
The only way to get the Dev Kit is with MS approval.

All software created to run on Xbox that does not infact have MS approval is......................( I won't say it for fear of being beaten for being redundantly redundant. )

Creation and distribution are pretty much locked down.
MS is clever like that.

[netranger6]

Ok, let Linux run on top of MS Bios on the XBOX, so what, it will be such a small number running that way. Let the engineering and CS students lab out a box with some Linux kernel. I for one would not mess with my box because it kicks so much arse as it is, no need for a more efficient memory management system, no need for an open architecture, no need for it period....unless of course I want to play pirated games, run mod chips, and circumvent MS's copyrights.....no thanks.

[GaMMa]

Xmun USB KB/Mouse has been a possibility for Xbox for a while.. they have done it... you just have to splice your Xbox dongle with a USB keyboard.. not too hard, only thing is Xbox has an extra wire which you don't need. If you don't believe me check the article out I linked on my first post in this thread. Also you can use the Xbox controller on the PC by doing the opposite, splicing a USB end with the Xbox controller... don't believe me on that either? Check xboxhacker.net for information on both of these things... USB KB/Mouse works...

And as for the old games crack, they're just getting used to the hardware, they'll port more complex things over later... They're doing a pretty good job IMO for programming Xbox for 3-4 months..

[Xmun]

Originally posted by GaMMa
Xmun USB KB/Mouse has been a possibility for Xbox for a while.. they have done it... you just have to splice your Xbox dongle with a USB keyboard.. not too hard, only thing is Xbox has an extra wire which you don't need. If you don't believe me check the article out I linked on my first post in this thread. Also you can use the Xbox controller on the PC by doing the opposite, splicing a USB end with the Xbox controller... don't believe me on that either? Check xboxhacker.net for information on both of these things... USB KB/Mouse works...

And as for the old games crack, they're just getting used to the hardware, they'll port more complex things over later... They're doing a pretty good job IMO for programming Xbox for 3-4 months..

*Sigh*


I didn't say you couldn't do it.
I said two things.

1) Idiots are stupid.
2) Circumventing proprietary design is illegal. The proprietary designs are there for a reason: licencing.

[Batman2372]

I have lots of money. I start a company that buys Ford Motor Company. I still have a lot of money, and I buy Exxon. Now I own both a major car manufacturer and a major gasoline distributor. I now make a new Mustang, and in the purchase agreement of buying this new Mustang, I say that you may ONLY use Exxon gas unless given express written permission by me.

Sounds ridiculous, right? Just as ridiculous as the argument that any software placed on the Xbox without consent from Microsoft is illegal.

Let's look at this EULA statement again.

NO XBOX SOFTWARE PRODUCT(S) MAY BE PUBLISHED, OR DISTRIBUTED TO END USERS, EXCEPT BY A LICENSED PUBLISHER PURSUANT TO AN XBOX DEVELOPMENT KIT AND XBOX PUBLISHER LICENSE AGREEMENT EXECUTED BY MICROSOFT

Let's look at the very BEGINNING of it. "No Xbox SOFTWARE product(s) may be published, blah, blah, blah". Well, I hate to tell you, but they're not making "Xbox Software". They are placing software that in no way contains any Xbox software code (DLL's, etc) on a piece of hardware, in this case an Xbox. As long as the software contains no part of Xbox software code, the Xbox-Linux guys are in the clear. The EULA never says anything about what is placed on the Xbox hardware, because if it did, then you would have the Ford/Exxon scenario, creating a unfair and illegal monopoly.

Sorry, Xmun, but if you're going to try to use the EULA and the law, you have to use ALL of it.

[Xmun]

Originally posted by Batman2372
Let's look at the very BEGINNING of it. "No Xbox SOFTWARE product(s) may be published, blah, blah, blah". Well, I hate to tell you, but they're not making "Xbox Software". They are placing software that in no way contains any Xbox software code (DLL's, etc) on a piece of hardware, in this case an Xbox. As long as the software contains no part of Xbox software code, the Xbox-Linux guys are in the clear. The EULA never says anything about what is placed on the Xbox hardware, because if it did, then you would have the Ford/Exxon scenario, creating a unfair and illegal monopoly.

Sorry, Xmun, but if you're going to try to use the EULA and the law, you have to use ALL of it.

Almost... but not quite.

You misread the EULA.
It makes very clear that the Dev kit and licence by MS is essential to the production equation.
Any software made for usage on the Xbox is "Xbox software" flat out.

How,you ask.
Xbox is not made with generic open market parts.
A few of the components in the Xbox are proprietary designs comissioned by MS.

To make as robust an OS as they are promising for the Xbox would infact have to make use of this specific hardware (The videocard and soundcard to be exact.).

To effectively use these proprietary devices with any form of software would require authorisation and tools designed by MS.

Undercutting them and in effect MS is illegal.
As well as any usage of the said hardware as a whole in which MS would not receive compensation/royalties from.

If they were generic mass market products you would have a point but MS has these hardware licences locked down.

Is an OS considered software: yes.
Is the OS made to harness Xbox specific hardware: According to the Linux camp yes.

Software made to run specifically on unique Xbox designed hardware is "Xbox software".

There is no way around that.


What point would there be in investin in proprietary rights if the law allowed them to be cirumvented by anybody who felt like it?

Doesn't make any sense.
Just like the Linux rubes trying word their way around what they are clearly trying to do.

[TegSkywalker]

Originally posted by darianX
BTW, I run a Linux server and write lots of stuff in PHP, so I have no complaints about Linux in general. What I dislike is the rampant zealotry, ivory tower and anti-corporate air that surrounds a great portion of the "community". Most of those folks need to grow up and get into the real world, where things are much different than in their basements.

You couldn't have put it simpler man.

[bwn82k]

The Xbox-Linux project has been 100% legal since Day-1. That was their main concern since they started. Read the information and documentation they have provided on the site. http://xbox-linux.sourceforge.net

[GO BUCCS!!!]

hahaha! linux on xbox! I LOVE IT!!!!!!
PREPARE TO BEND OVER AND SAY OUCH!!!!!!! mr. BILL GATES... YOU FRECKLEFACED, REDHEADED NERDBOY!
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

[GaMMa]

Read this article.... http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/26995.html

You'll note that, presuming it didn't say that in any original Xbox EULA (we haven't got one, we don't know), this is a supplementary EULA which says modification and/or creation of derivative works from the hardware is forbidded.