What do you think Bungie is doing to Halo 2?

hmmm, such ininformed, unhyped and fanboy-flled discussions sicken me (like doom3 vs. Hlaf-life 2)
the point is, halo 2 is a console game, half-life 2 is PC. you can not accuratley compare the two

so, just to go with the flow, ill post my own flaming, fanboy remarks
Horray for the koopa!Horray for the PC! Horray for Hal-life 2!
I've been hyping half-life 2 for quite some time now!
Half-life 2 owns, it will rock the gaming industry
I never liked halo, in truth, all i kept thinking was "god I wish this was more like half-life"!

Half-life 2 will be good for nostalgia, physics and gameplay
Halo2 will be some out-of-the-way console FPS wannabee..UNTIL it comes out on a PC!

All of you who say bad things about half-life dont know much about it, or you havent played half-life one, or you saw the halo2 video or whatever before seeing half-life 2

Personally, ive never seen any media regarding halo2, because frankly I DONT CARE!!!! I will never buy it, or ever get an xbox for any reason!

Half-life= greatest game of all time (or so says PCgamer) Half-life 2 will raise the bar, so wait until it actually comes out before bad-mouthing it gosh darnit!!

This has been a flaming, overexaggerated fanboy post from theotherguy, thank you, goodnight
Hope this helped ya, koopa

Quote:

---

Originally posted by theotherguy

Halo2 will be some out-of-the-way console FPS wannabee..UNTIL it comes out on a PC!

---

Don't get your hopes up, I doubt it'll come to PC.

Now, I'm a very loyal PCgamer, and I don't even have a top-notch rig. (550MHz, GF2... and anything else that went out with bell-bottoms) But, Halo is still the best FPS I've ever played. Yes, HL is the best PC game ever (according to my idols- the PCGAMER staff. GO VEDE!!!!) and I must've finished it as many times as I've finished Halo. The mods are always a welcome addition, but you don't rate a game on what it becomes after it's initial release (y'know, patch fixes, or just mods).

Both HL2 and Halo2 have PLENTY of potential, though HL2 obviously has more bells than Halo2 ever will... Anyway, if I could, I'd get Halo2 and Half-Life 2 on PC (if I could- meaning if I had the best PC available), I'd much rather play an FPS on my PC. :)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by theotherguy
hmmm, such ininformed, unhyped and fanboy-flled discussions sicken me (like doom3 vs. Hlaf-life 2)
the point is, halo 2 is a console game, half-life 2 is PC. you can not accuratley compare the two

so, just to go with the flow, ill post my own flaming, fanboy remarks
Horray for the koopa!Horray for the PC! Horray for Hal-life 2!
I've been hyping half-life 2 for quite some time now!
Half-life 2 owns, it will rock the gaming industry
I never liked halo, in truth, all i kept thinking was "god I wish this was more like half-life"!

Half-life 2 will be good for nostalgia, physics and gameplay
Halo2 will be some out-of-the-way console FPS wannabee..UNTIL it comes out on a PC!

All of you who say bad things about half-life dont know much about it, or you havent played half-life one, or you saw the halo2 video or whatever before seeing half-life 2

Personally, ive never seen any media regarding halo2, because frankly I DONT CARE!!!! I will never buy it, or ever get an xbox for any reason!

Half-life= greatest game of all time (or so says PCgamer) Half-life 2 will raise the bar, so wait until it actually comes out before bad-mouthing it gosh darnit!!

This has been a flaming, overexaggerated fanboy post from theotherguy, thank you, goodnight
Hope this helped ya, koopa

---

lol great overexaggerated, flaming fanboy post!


;)

My signature says everything.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by MerimacHamwich
My signature says everything.

---

Personally, I think DOOM 3 is likely to be scaled down for the XBox...but, we all know Halo 2 won't...it'll be designed for it :D

Quote:

---

Originally posted by MerimacHamwich
My signature says everything.

---

IF i had somehow played the doom3 alpha, I WOULD say that it was f-ing awesome!

but, IF i HAd played the alpha, i'd say i still want hl2 more:D

im not saying i have the alpha or anything....

Ok, yes I am a devout HL 2 fan, and a long time cg artist; but I must say that all the Halo 2 fans here make HL 2 fans like me laugh a little. Of course you wold like an explanation, and here it is:

- First, and this is unarguable, I find it terribly hard to beleive how much you all hype Halo 2 and simply insist it will be better graphics, gameplay, and so forth than any thing we pc gamers have layed eyes on. Why do I and every other HL 2 person say you people are just, well, kinda dumb?? Because there hasn't been a SINGLE PEICE OF ACTUAL MEDIA showing off anything remotely resemlbing actual anything in Halo 2!! The only thing that you have is some (admittedly cool) cg movie that was shown at e3. This cg movie, is just that, A CG MOVIE!! No gameplay, no Hlao 2 engine, no rendition of how any of the game will look like. And for all the idiots who are about to respond saying "Hey, that is what Halo 2 is going to look like, duuhh..." no my friends it isn't, this was a short movie created with a 3d program (I beleive it was Maya they used) to give it a very sweet realistic action look, but ultimately you have nothing but the first game (which , well sucked in the face of any fps on the computer, especially Half life) to wave in our PC gamer faces.

- The other comment I usually hear is "Hey Halo 2 is DESIGNED for the X-Box, therefore its better because...???"
Because what??? Maybe because Microsoft now owns Bungie and wants to make a good game for there console. Do you think that by them designing it exclusivley for the X-Box it makes it way better than "anything like, ever...". The X-Box is third generation hardware compared to most high end PC's now and couldn't hope to render any Direct X 9 features (since it still has Direct X 8 on a relativley underclocked Ge-Force 3) or hope to put 2/3 the polygon count on the laughable 640 x 480 resolution of a TV screen.

- "Hey man, who cares about graphics engines and hyper realistic features such as physics and evocative emotions in NPCs, all that matters is depth and innovation of gameplay"
Very true point indeed, something I hope microsoft could learn these computer thingies they love so much. I just love the gameplay of twidling both thumb joysticks around in circles to try and move your character while not look like a stumbling drunkard. Oh and I can't wait when Halo 2 comes out with there SDK and levelmaker so that we can make maps and mods like counterstrike with the (guessably) awsome Halo 2 engine. Oh wait... we can't; once we beat the game that's it, oh thats ok, time to just click on over to multiplayer and jump into some 32+ player online action!! Oh but wait, I have to pay for a super cool service whichdoesn't let me play with very many people, can't compete with ping times of a computer have only the maps and weopans to play with that Bungie made. Bah, who cares about all those "computer, nerdy, geeky GIMMICKS, ill just watch this super cool Halo 2 trailer over and over again." Sure you console guys, you better steer clear of all them gimmicks.

Gosh, I'm sure Halo and its sequel will stay around a long time, and be endlessly replayable, way better than anything halflifes done. I mean gosh, it came out in 1998, and is still the most popular online computer game as of this second. Sheesh its user created mods that you can download for free, have become stand alone shelf products, and not just one: Counterstrike, Team Fortress Classic, Day of Defeat, and Gun Man Chronicles.

Anyways, I can go on and on and on and on.... and I probably will to defend the PCs dominance in basically everything that is gaming. For right now I will let all the Halo 2 fans muster up some good evidence (and not predictions or theories) on how Halo 2 will somehow conquer the "gaming industry" (totally two different meanings when refereing to PC and consoles).

Any

Just how do facial expressions make it easier to mod? That makes no sense. The physics makes things real but you never know if Valve got a fat head and just made a game full of "toys" as you put it and you ended with a nice and pretty polished terd. Your just going on and on about the engine for the possiblities qith mods but aren't realising that if HL 2 needs a mod to survive then it wasn't the game it was made out to be. While you're saying "think about the possibilities with the source engine" other people are saying how cool is Doom III or Halo 2 going to be. Half-Life has about 8 millions users. I'd say a small portion acutally got HL because it was a good game and the rest got it for Counter-Strike. And I bet you that when the source engine doesn't fulfil your fantasy of ultra realism you'll come up with a lame excuse like, well too much realism doesn't do it for me.

I have played Half-Life and the story was very boring. The only thing that really got my attention was when the government wanted to "clean" up the mess. The ending wasn't even all that great either. G-Man (I though G-Men worked for FBI and not Aliens) offers you a job, you accept and then it goes black..............That's it? Say whatever you want about how the engine is so great but if the game is crap, then it's crap. I can't say Halo 2 will be better but if you haven't played either how can you say Halo 2 lacks anything? You're just another PC fan boy looking for a way to trash on one of the consoles' best games. Halo dethrones HL as FPS King. It raises the bar on what's expected from an FPS (actual gameplay and immersion and not "toys"). Unreal II couldn't even get the job done. PC has nothing over Xbox's Halo (except Halo PC), then Half-Life 2 just pops up. Don't hype up so much on Half-life, many Metal Gear fans had to learn the hard way on why not to hype a sequel so much. :D

The same can be said for Half Life 2, Doom 3 and Fable and any other game that is going to be released. No one has any definitive proof of what will and what will not be in the final version of the game. That is unless, ofcourse, they are one of the lead designers on the game.

You admitted you are a devout Half Life 2 fan, so any devout Halo 2 fans out there have just as good of an opinion as you do. Opinion is not fact.

Personally I am looking forward greatly to all three games, that is Half Life 2, Halo 2 and Doom 3. However, seeing as I have played the Alpha for Doom 3 I am inclined to be more excited for it. I have seen what it has to offer in the early stages, and I was very impressed, now I can only dream of what the final version will be like. I know it will be good, becuase I can pretty much deduce that what I have played in the early version will appear in the final version, at the least if there are no improvements.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by MerimacHamwich
The same can be said for Half Life 2, Doom 3 and Fable and any other game that is going to be released. No one has any definitive proof of what will and what will not be in the final version of the game. That is unless, ofcourse, they are one of the lead designers on the game.

You admitted you are a devout Half Life 2 fan, so any devout Halo 2 fans out there have just as good of an opinion as you do. Opinion is not fact.

Personally I am looking forward greatly to all three games, that is Half Life 2, Halo 2 and Doom 3. However, seeing as I have played the Alpha for Doom 3 I am inclined to be more excited for it. I have seen what it has to offer in the early stages, and I was very impressed, now I can only dream of what the final version will be like. I know it will be good, becuase I can pretty much deduce that what I have played in the early version will appear in the final version, at the least if there are no improvements.

---

So true. Hey can you really use shadows to your advantage? Some guys told me that you can switch off the lights wait in the dark. Even something about a power up that is really a demon possesing you. :cheers:

I never tried to turn off any lights. Although, you could place lights wherever you wanted in the Alpha, but I am sure that has nothing to do with what you were talking about.

This powerup you speak of I have heard about, but have not experienced in the Alpha, it is something I heard will be in the final version. I think its called Berserk mode. Your guy gets sucked through a crack in the ground or something and disapears from the screen. He then emerges through a different crack as a skeleton, then flesh proceeds to encompass your body. From then on you have a fatal punch until the power up is gone. Well, that is my rather garbled memory of what I have heard. You might have super health and stuff too, and the details might be different in reference to the travel through hell.

Anyhow... GO DOOM 3!
:cheers:

Quote:

---

The simplest answer is almost always the right one.

---

Are you trying to say I'm a simpleton? Lol. Just kidding.

I might have to use that quote as a signature.

Of course, modified with the right punctuation. ;)

Yeah while you're powered up screams of pain are coming out of your character and everyone becomes aware that someone is coming to kick their ass. :D :cool:

ok i'll take this one step at a time. first of all, motley crew, excellent post. there are only two things i don't agree with. the first is that the 2003 e3 trailer was in-game for most parts, and included in-engine cinematics, according to bungie and MS. so if you think they're lying, then uh...whatever.

also, the xbox pad isn't anywhere near as bad as you say it is for controlling your character in an FPS.


next on the hitlist.

Quote:

---

ust how do facial expressions make it easier to mod? That makes no sense.

---

more proof that you know nothing about half life 2. users can input a wav speech file and the engine will automatically create facial expressions for the speech, regardless of language or accent. alot easier than manually coding expressions, huh?

Quote:

---

The physics makes things real but you never know if Valve got a fat head and just made a game full of "toys" as you put it and you ended with a nice and pretty polished terd. Your just going on and on about the engine for the possiblities qith mods but aren't realising that if HL 2 needs a mod to survive then it wasn't the game it was made out to be.

---

not at all. I'm saying how half life 2 uses these great physics "toys" for its own game, and makes them easy for modders to use to extend the life of the game. Without modding, game communities die. I've seen it happen to too many games....black and white for example...and now even battlefield 1942. modders are seeing how much mor ecan be done with source and are porting projects to it. because of this, five years from now, bf1942 will be an oldie but goodie, and half life 2 will be still selling strong in mutliple GOTY and platinum editions or whatnot

Quote:

---

While you're saying "think about the possibilities with the source engine" other people are saying how cool is Doom III or Halo 2 going to be. Half-Life has about 8 millions users. I'd say a small portion acutally got HL because it was a good game and the rest got it for Counter-Strike. And I bet you that when the source engine doesn't fulfil your fantasy of ultra realism you'll come up with a lame excuse like, well too much realism doesn't do it for me.

---

uh...what? half life was the "best pc game ever" and sold like mad. the reason CS was so popular was because it was modded on a mod-friendly, popular engine. and i don't really get what you're talkign about with lame excuses. any non-realistic things that are in the game are usually, according to gabe, "design decisions, not technical limitations." meaning, if they wanted, full geomod could be implemented, but a design decision was made not to, because it'd be to gimmicky.

Quote:

---

I have played Half-Life and the story was very boring. The only thing that really got my attention was when the government wanted to "clean" up the mess. The ending wasn't even all that great either. G-Man (I though G-Men worked for FBI and not Aliens) offers you a job, you accept and then it goes black..............That's it?

---

okay. you're opinion > every gaming mag ever printed. i guess you're right, hl's story sucked.

Quote:

---

Say whatever you want about how the engine is so great but if the game is crap, then it's crap. I can't say Halo 2 will be better but if you haven't played either how can you say Halo 2 lacks anything? You're just another PC fan boy looking for a way to trash on one of the consoles' best games.

---

i own an xbox, and am looking forward to halo2 very much. when you assume...

Quote:

---

Halo dethrones HL as FPS King. It raises the bar on what's expected from an FPS (actual gameplay and immersion and not "toys").

---

half life came out 5 years ago. the fact that people still compare halo to half life proves alot, doesn't it?

Quote:

---

PC has nothing over Xbox's Halo (except Halo PC), then Half-Life 2 just pops up.

---

theres a couple thousand PC gamers who'd be glad to kill you over that statement.

Quote:

---

Don't hype up so much on Half-life, many Metal Gear fans had to learn the hard way on why not to hype a sequel so much. :D

---

the same could be said about hyping MS products...remember enclave? and kung fu chaos, and that chariot racing game, and tao feng, and kakuto chojin, and blinx, and whacked, and fuzion frenzy, and that on foot racing game...

don't get me wrong, i know halo2 will be great.

but, repeating the party line, half life 2, from what we have know so far, looks better to me. there's not much that can change my mind on the subject, and i doubt there's much me or any number of pc gamers can do to change anyone else's mind.

Quote:

---

Just how do facial expressions make it easier to mod? That makes no sense. The physics makes things real but you never know if Valve got a fat head and just made a game full of "toys" as you put it and you ended with a nice and pretty polished terd. Your just going on and on about the engine for the possiblities qith mods but aren't realising that if HL 2 needs a mod to survive then it wasn't the game it was made out to be. While you're saying "think about the possibilities with the source engine" other people are saying how cool is Doom III or Halo 2 going to be. Half-Life has about 8 millions users. I'd say a small portion acutally got HL because it was a good game and the rest got it for Counter-Strike. And I bet you that when the source engine doesn't fulfil your fantasy of ultra realism you'll come up with a lame excuse like, well too much realism doesn't do it for me. I have played Half-Life and the story was very boring. The only thing that really got my attention was when the government wanted to "clean" up the mess. The ending wasn't even all that great either. G-Man (I though G-Men worked for FBI and not Aliens) offers you a job, you accept and then it goes black..............That's it? Say whatever you want about how the engine is so great but if the game is crap, then it's crap. I can't say Halo 2 will be better but if you haven't played either how can you say Halo 2 lacks anything? You're just another PC fan boy looking for a way to trash on one of the consoles' best games. Halo dethrones HL as FPS King. It raises the bar on what's expected from an FPS (actual gameplay and immersion and not "toys"). Unreal II couldn't even get the job done. PC has nothing over Xbox's Halo (except Halo PC), then Half-Life 2 just pops up. Don't hype up so much on Half-life, many Metal Gear fans had to learn the hard way on why not to hype a sequel so much.

---

Facial expressions don't help make a mod? Your joking right? Have you never played a game and thought "my god this guy talking to me looks like a retarded puppet?" Anyway the facial expression technology auto lip syncs with whatever speech you input into the game. Meaning that more people can have more convincing mods.

Furthermore, saying that just because the game is made with modding in mind it means people aren't buying it for it's true purpose and therefor is inferior is complete bull. From what i have seen, halflife 2 will feature some very innovative gameplay and AI and interesting level design as well as character design. As far as i see it it has the makings of an excellent game. Saying that just because it supports a great degree of modification takes away from the game is like saying that giving something room for improvement and expansion is bad cause it should have been 150% perfect the first time and should be perfect at all times forever.

Mods add replay value for free. Halo has no mods, it is a great game but there is a finite limit to what you can do in it. Games with mods in mind have no limit, as long as a community exists the game is always expanded upon one way or another.

Since i don't have an xbox i will not be getting halo 2, i'd love to but i have no room in my cramped dorm for a tv. So i am restricted to pc games. and playing halo 2 on friends' xboxes. However I am going to get all the fancy new pc games i can get my hands on as games are not mutually exclusive to each other.

So in conclusion you dismissing key features that other games possess simply because you like halo 2 better. This is not a good philosophy. it prevents improvement. Rejoice in games for what they have, don't dismiss them because they possess new features your game of choice doesn't.

I am looking forward to playing halo 2 btw, even if i am not going to buy it due to my limitations.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Koopa
ok i'll take this one step at a time. first of all, motley crew, excellent post. there are only two things i don't agree with. the first is that the 2003 e3 trailer was in-game for most parts, and included in-engine cinematics, according to bungie and MS. so if you think they're lying, then uh...whatever.

also, the xbox pad isn't anywhere near as bad as you say it is for controlling your character in an FPS.


next on the hitlist.


more proof that you know nothing about half life 2. users can input a wav speech file and the engine will automatically create facial expressions for the speech, regardless of language or accent. alot easier than manually coding expressions, huh?


blah blah blah blah

but, repeating the party line, half life 2, from what we have know so far, looks better to me. there's not much that can change my mind on the subject, and i doubt there's much me or any number of pc gamers can do to change anyone else's mind.

---

Not directed towards you Koopa Poopa, just wanted to quote you for the "blah blah blah". :)

Anyway, a few points I want to make:

I'd like to see MotleycrewL rip apart PS2 and GC if he loathes the Xbox this much.

And, Koopa and I are no PC gamer fanboys. We may lean toward PC gaming (more him than me... damn rich dude has a top notch PC :cuss: ) but we turn to our console for a different gaming experience.

Quote:

---

Oh and I can't wait when Halo 2 comes out with there SDK and levelmaker so that we can make maps and mods like counterstrike with the (guessably) awsome Halo 2 engine. Oh wait... we can't; once we beat the game that's it, oh thats ok, time to just click on over to multiplayer and jump into some 32+ player online action!!

---

Partially true... there is downloadable content for Xbox games... so you will be able to download any new maps, weapons, or any other addon that the *original* developers have in mind. But yeah, there will not be any user-made maps, but that hasn't detracted from my Xbox Live experience, only the major case of LAG! :cuss:

Quote:

---

Sheesh its user created mods that you can download for free, have become stand alone shelf products, and not just one: Counterstrike, Team Fortress Classic, Day of Defeat, and Gun Man Chronicles.

---

Well, most reviewers (more importantly, PCGAMER) don't review games or pass judgement on future patches/fixes/mods. So, I'm not going to say HL2 > Halo2 because of usermade mods/maps/anything else that tickles your gaming thumbs (or fingers...). But hey, Half-Life was great by itself, and became greater when CS rolled along, so no one can deny that addons prolong a game's life span.

Now, Stormlord... you show your ignorance when you point fingers at HL2's features. Physics, facial expressions, and anything else you can possibly overlook... Back in the DOOM 1 days, you could've been the person to frown upon DukeNukem saying, "OH! JUMPING?! What does that add to the game experience? OH! You could look up and down now! That's nothing!"... little things like that make the game more realistic. Someday, games will accurately mimic real life enviroments and all these little features that we look at as luxeries now, will be standard then.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SPARTAN VI


Not directed towards you Koopa Poopa, just wanted to quote you for the "blah blah blah". :)

Anyway, a few points I want to make:

I'd like to see MotleycrewL rip apart PS2 and GC if he loathes the Xbox this much.

And, Koopa and I are no PC gamer fanboys. We may lean toward PC gaming (more him than me... damn rich dude has a top notch PC :cuss: ) but we turn to our console for a different gaming experience.



Partially true... there is downloadable content for Xbox games... so you will be able to download any new maps, weapons, or any other addon that the *original* developers have in mind. But yeah, there will not be any user-made maps, but that hasn't detracted from my Xbox Live experience, only the major case of LAG! :cuss:



Well, most reviewers (more importantly, PCGAMER) don't review games or pass judgement on future patches/fixes/mods. So, I not going to say HL2 > Halo2 because of usermade mods/maps/anything else that tickles your gaming thumbs (or fingers...). But hey, Half-Life was great by itself, and became greater when CS rolled along, so no one can deny that addons prolong a game's life span.

Now, Stormlord... you show your ignorance when you point fingers at HL2's features. Physics, facial expressions, and anything else you can possibly overlook... Back in the DOOM 1 days, you could've been the person to frown upon DukeNukem saying, "OH! JUMPING?! What does that add to the game experience? OH! You could look up and down now! That's nothing!"... little things like that make the game more realistic. Someday, games will accurately mimic real life enviroments and all these little features that we look at as luxeries now, will be standard then.

---

well said. if games are gonna progress toward reality, they've gotta start somwhere. the source engine is a good starting point.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Koopa


well said. if games are gonna progress toward reality, they've gotta start somwhere. the source engine is a good starting point.

---

Exactly my point. There's no need to look upon HL2's features negatively... looks kind of desperate to slam Valve for doing something different in an effort to make Halo2's monotonous engine look good...:eek:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by MotleycrewL
Ok, yes I am a devout HL 2 fan, and a long time cg artist; but I must say that all the Halo 2 fans here make HL 2 fans like me laugh a little. Of course you wold like an explanation, and here it is:

- First, and this is unarguable, I find it terribly hard to beleive how much you all hype Halo 2 and simply insist it will be better graphics, gameplay, and so forth than any thing we pc gamers have layed eyes on. Why do I and every other HL 2 person say you people are just, well, kinda dumb?? Because there hasn't been a SINGLE PEICE OF ACTUAL MEDIA showing off anything remotely resemlbing actual anything in Halo 2!! The only thing that you have is some (admittedly cool) cg movie that was shown at e3. This cg movie, is just that, A CG MOVIE!! No gameplay, no Hlao 2 engine, no rendition of how any of the game will look like. And for all the idiots who are about to respond saying "Hey, that is what Halo 2 is going to look like, duuhh..." no my friends it isn't, this was a short movie created with a 3d program (I beleive it was Maya they used) to give it a very sweet realistic action look, but ultimately you have nothing but the first game (which , well sucked in the face of any fps on the computer, especially Half life) to wave in our PC gamer faces.

---

E3 trailer was mostly actual gameplay, maybe your thinking of the first trailer that came out. I find it funny how you seem to know so much about how it was created, but you're wrong about it. That was an actual level in Halo 2, not created with Maya. And believe me, there are plenty of PC FPS fans here at XBA, but almost all of them love Halo, so it doen't seem to have "sucked in the face of any fps on the computer", a lot of people like Halo much more than lots of PC FPS

Quote:

---

- The other comment I usually hear is "Hey Halo 2 is DESIGNED for the X-Box, therefore its better because...???"
Because what??? Maybe because Microsoft now owns Bungie and wants to make a good game for there console. Do you think that by them designing it exclusivley for the X-Box it makes it way better than "anything like, ever...". The X-Box is third generation hardware compared to most high end PC's now and couldn't hope to render any Direct X 9 features (since it still has Direct X 8 on a relativley underclocked Ge-Force 3) or hope to put 2/3 the polygon count on the laughable 640 x 480 resolution of a TV screen.

- "Hey man, who cares about graphics engines and hyper realistic features such as physics and evocative emotions in NPCs, all that matters is depth and innovation of gameplay"
Very true point indeed, something I hope microsoft could learn these computer thingies they love so much. I just love the gameplay of twidling both thumb joysticks around in circles to try and move your character while not look like a stumbling drunkard. Oh and I can't wait when Halo 2 comes out with there SDK and levelmaker so that we can make maps and mods like counterstrike with the (guessably) awsome Halo 2 engine. Oh wait... we can't; once we beat the game that's it, oh thats ok, time to just click on over to multiplayer and jump into some 32+ player online action!! Oh but wait, I have to pay for a super cool service whichdoesn't let me play with very many people, can't compete with ping times of a computer have only the maps and weopans to play with that Bungie made. Bah, who cares about all those "computer, nerdy, geeky GIMMICKS, ill just watch this super cool Halo 2 trailer over and over again." Sure you console guys, you better steer clear of all them gimmicks.

---

If you have that hard a time using the thumbsticks, you obviously haven't played halo for very long. It is very easy to pick up, my PS 2 owning friends learned how to do it in 1 game of TS. Like someone said, there is downloadable content, which i will amit, is not as good or as plentiful as user made mods, but it's still not playing on the same old maps, with the same old guns, and even on Halo, the maps and guns still seem to be liked by lots of people, even after almost 2 years.

Slamming one game to make another is not a good thing. Everyone of the big three (Doom 3, Halo2, and Halflife 2) are trying to come up with technology that will move the industry further ahead, and inturn, they will all do so. Despite your poeples flagrant attempts to choose a "better" and not look like fanboys you are all failing miserably. Each game has its own highpoint which will move the industry in a positive direction It does not come down to one game that will move the industry while the others are ignored. A ton of attention will be payed to all of the games, and developers will try to take the best of all the games and combine them into a new game that will push the industry even farther. The same can be said about consoles. The favoratism that is found in many gamers attitudes is sickening. It is definetly one of the most closed minded groups in the world. See each game for its positives and negatives, do not ignore one or the other.

I personally have found this discussion to have become moot since the arguements about Half-Life 2 and Halo 2 came about.