360: Embedded Dram Spec Confirmed...

[Sammael]

Somebody please tell me what does this all mean?!?! Is it good?!?! Should I get horny?!?!

Today, NEC Electronics has confirmed that Microsoft will incorporate leading-edge embedded DRAM (eDRAM) technology from NEC Electronics in the Xbox 360. The high-performance eDRAM macros designed by NEC Electronics are a key piece of the graphics subsystem and will enable the console to provide users with a stunning high-definition graphics experience.

In a world exclusive, TeamXbox was the first publication to reveal the existence of the embedded video RAM back in February, 2004. Last week, we also revealed the ATI patent for a “method and apparatus for supporting anti-aliasing oversampling in a video graphics system that utilizes a custom memory for storage of the frame buffer.” In layman terms, that is embedded video RAM for the GPU to use it as a frame buffer.


The eDRAM graphics chip is manufactured in NEC Electronics' 300-millimeter (mm) wafer fabrication facility, which runs the company's most advanced processes.

"The next-generation Xbox platform will provide gamers with a highly advanced graphics experience," said Todd Holmdahl, corporate vice president, Xbox Product Group. "NEC Electronics' cutting-edge embedded DRAM technology plays a vital role in enabling our graphics engine's performance, while its manufacturing process provides a reliable resource that can deliver the volumes required to support what will be an extremely popular gaming platform."

"Microsoft's next-generation Xbox platform promises to be a revolutionary gaming platform and must-have consumer device," said Hirokazu Hashimoto, executive vice president, NEC Electronics Corporation. "NEC Electronics is pleased to be an integral part of this device and looks forward to working with Microsoft to make the next-generation Xbox platform a top seller."

The use of the embedded DRAM can be better understood when viewing the following image from the ATI patent:

The figure illustrates a block diagram of a “graphics processing system” that supports oversampling anti-aliasing. The system includes a graphics processor (GPU), a sample memory (the standard memory on today's video cards) and a custom memory module (the embedded RAM).

This custom memory has been created mostly to perform anti-aliasing operations and help overcometoday's biggest problem in graphics chips: memory bandwidth. By using this the Xbox 360 will be able to run games at 720p HDTV resolution, that is 1280x720, with full screen anti-aliasing and almost no impact on framerate.

[SamSmith]

AHH!! yes that picture clears everything up!! :P

[vman]

it basically means good things for us xbox gamers. just sit back and enjoy the insane graphics that will blow your mind.

[AlphaRaptor]

Ok I could be wrong, but from what I can tell the Xbox 360's GPU will consist of two types of ram. The first type, video RAM (VRAM), is like what you find in all computers which have a non-onboard video card. The second type is interesting, this embedded DRAM sounds almost like another set of ram on 360's video card totally devoted to giving us high resolution graphics and anti-aliasing. When I read that all games on the 360 would be required to play in HDTV resolutions, on one hand I was excited, on the other I wasn't. Because that would mean developers would have to sacrafice graphics for something that many of us don't have, a $3000 HDTV. BUT now I'm HYPED because this means that Xbox 360 will be able to support these ultra crisp and jag free graphics without impacting the frame rate. So basicly you have memory to handle the actual geometry, lighting, shader and texture data then on top of that you have memory totally dedicated to handling the HDTV and anti-aliasing. Go ahead Sammael, get horny, I sure am.

[Sammael]

Sounds good. Shame I don't have an HDTV, I'd be even hornier.

[lotec16]

Ok I could be wrong, but from what I can tell the Xbox 360's GPU will consist of two types of ram. The first type, video RAM (VRAM), is like what you find in all computers which have a non-onboard video card. The second type is interesting, this embedded DRAM sounds almost like another set of ram on 360's video card totally devoted to giving us high resolution graphics and anti-aliasing. When I read that all games on the 360 would be required to play in HDTV resolutions, on one hand I was excited, on the other I wasn't. Because that would mean developers would have to sacrafice graphics for something that many of us don't have, a $3000 HDTV. BUT now I'm HYPED because this means that Xbox 360 will be able to support these ultra crisp and jag free graphics without impacting the frame rate. So basicly you have memory to handle the actual geometry, lighting, shader and texture data then on top of that you have memory totally dedicated to handling the HDTV and anti-aliasing. Go ahead Sammael, get horny, I sure am.

Yea, I think xbox 360 will be a bit like xbox, which has unified ram for the system and the graphics card, and but xbox 360 will have the extra embeded ram for the anti-aliasing. This has a few advantages because there doesn't have to be a bus between system and graphics memory.

[skorp]

The memory will be used by the the video processor, developed by ATI, in much the same way as cache RAM is used by a processor. By using a high-speed storage area as a frame buffer, the R500 in the Xbox 360 will be able to perform anti-aliasing at 1280x720 with almost no impact on frame-rate, apparently.

Sounds good...

Just need to find out how much memory officially (512mb?) will be in the 360!

[Variation-XBA]

If it means pretty graphics and colors, im in

[Sammael]

Skorp I think current rumors suggest 512, however it could be 256 but either would be a huge improvement over the 64 Xbox currently has.

[AlphaRaptor]

Maybe it was going to be 256 over a year ago? Then, based on the decision to use a PPU, bumped it up to 512...

[vman]

last time i heard, it was 256 meg cause its a gaming console and not a regular PC which means it wouldnt actually NEED the 512 to be fast. all the memory would be dedicated to gaming.

[AlphaRaptor]

last time i heard, it was 256 meg cause its a gaming console and not a regular PC which means it wouldnt actually NEED the 512 to be fast. all the memory would be dedicated to gaming.

True, but if its to be shared among three processors, its gonna need that bandwidth.

[JeffyP007]

it basically means good things for us xbox gamers. just sit back and enjoy the insane graphics that will blow your mind.

Dude, you have no clue what this means. Do work for microsoft or what?

It means that the graphics chip will actually contain a portion of ram that is on the chip. Generally video ram isn't on the chip, but it is dedicated for use only by the graphics processor. So what's going on, is that in addition to this general use video ram, which is located off chip, there will be an amount of ram embedded on the graphics chip, which can obviously be accessed at a much faster speed, as it is on chip.

This is really becomming standard practice in many of today's digital IC designs, to include ram on the chip. It does come at a cost though, that makes it impractical to put all the ram on chip. The physical size of the graphics chip would become to large to include say 128+ megs of video ram on the chip. You wouldn't be able to fit so many chips on one manufactured plate, and you'd have to press a lot more, and your costs would rise. Better to simply use external ram from a dedicated ram manufacturer at lower cost than to drive the cost of your custom chip up so much.

It looks that this embeded ram is going to be dedicated to anti ailising operations, at least according to the article. This makes sense, as AA is pretty costly feature, and if you could move it to a dedicated space thats on the chip, you won't degrade performance for everything else.

So basically, I think all this means is that xbox games should all be running at 4x, possibly 8x anti-ailising with out a large hit to the frame rate, as it won't be as taxing on the GPU as it was in the previous generation. If AA was really that awe inspiring, I'd be excited, but this isn't really anything special in my opinion. Yes, games will look a bit prettier, but hardly a breakthrough that will produce "Insane" graphics. The benefits of AA won't really even be apparent unless you're using HDTV, as the pixel size of standard TV resolutions is too large to really eliminate "jaggies." So for the majority who don't own HDTVs this all amounts to jack squat.

[MerimacHamwich]

Wow, first post and you're all jumpy at other members, trying to prove your awesomness over theirs! Such is the nature of the internet I guess.

[JeffyP007]

post #2:

[Variation-XBA]

post #2:

Wow.... I'm glad you came to this site...

[blonks]

Wow.... I'm glad you came to this site...

hahah its only canadian based

[TheCovenant]

post #2:

welcome to xba, i think you're off to a good start.

[StudioAlex]

I'd say so. He's actually a friend of mine (whom I pointed out this confusing thread becsuse I wanted some explanation), but I've no idea why he's acting as he is. But then, if he's pissing off canadians it can't be all that bad.

[LynxFX]

If AA was really that awe inspiring, I'd be excited, but this isn't really anything special in my opinion. Yes, games will look a bit prettier, but hardly a breakthrough that will produce "Insane" graphics. The benefits of AA won't really even be apparent unless you're using HDTV, as the pixel size of standard TV resolutions is too large to really eliminate "jaggies." So for the majority who don't own HDTVs this all amounts to jack squat.

Most of your information was farely spot on (dispite the subsequent posts) but here's where you go off base. AA has huge benefits to SDTV's and if game designers actually used them this past generation, Xbox games would look that much better. Most didn't use it because the Xbox just isn't powerful enough. But back to the image quality, you really shouldn't think of television in terms of pixels because that's only half the truth. TV resolution is measured in lines in a completely different format than computer monitors. You can have perfectly smooth edges on an SDTV. Just watch any movie or for an easier comparison, watch a 3D rendered movie. No jaggies there. The same could be true for games and will most likely in the next gen. Once you move into HD resolution the need for extensive AA goes down (still needed but you can get away with lower AA and still end up with smooth lines) so the real users that benefit from AA will actually be people still on SDTV's.